Miller & Martin, the Atlanta-based law firm hired by Ravi Zacharias International Ministries (RZIM) to investigate allegations of sexual impropriety against their founder, released its report on Thursday.
It is devastating, to say the least.
Zacharias died in May 2020 from sarcoma. At his funeral, Mike Pence referred to him as “the C.S. Lewis of our day” and “the greatest Christian apologist of this century”, echoing a sentiment shared by millions of evangelicals worldwide.
As the RZIM website puts it, “For over 30 years and across 43 countries, RZIM has met millions of questioners with thoughtful answers concerning faith and God.” At the helm of this influential organization was the phenomenon of Ravi Zacharias – the Indian-born Canadian-American with the gentle spirit and razor-sharp intellect.
For years, the quickest draw in a duel with an atheist has been to grab your phone and swiftly swipe to a YouTube snippet of one of Ravi’s talks or viral answers to a doubting student during a Q&A in a packed auditorium at some or other famous university.
Now, we are all forced to deal with sentences such as “Tragically, witnesses described encounters including sexting, unwanted touching, spiritual abuse, and rape.” This particular statement comes from RZIM’s “Open Letter” that accompanied the release of Miller & Martin’s report, so no rumours or conjecture here.
I cannot help but wonder what the student in that video is thinking.
So what happened? Why? What are we to make of it? How should we respond?
I think the most important thing we should do is not look for new answers, because there aren’t any. Humanity is still the beast it has always been, an issue that has been dealt with in depth in the pages of Scripture. The clearest presentation of the dilemma of being human is found in Paul’s letter to the Romans, and we are all under discussion there. Ravi, you, me; all of us.
Our lives are a composite of two worlds, we read in Romans: The world of the flesh and the world of the Spirit. If we are dead in our sins – unregenerate, as we say – the world of the Spirit is reduced to the voice of the conscience; a law in our hearts that manifests as thoughts accusing or excusing us. Because of the power of conscience, Paul tells us, gentiles are just as accountable as the Jews who have a written law to guide them in matters of wrong and right.
However, neither the voice of conscience nor the Torah can provide the life-energy that is required to live up to their prohibitions and commands. For this to happen, one needs to enter the world of the Spirit and become a citizen there. This can only happen through a very real crucifixion and death to the world of the flesh and a subsequent resurrection in the world of the Spirit.
We have all kinds of fancy words to describe this passage, such as regeneration, new birth, conversion, getting saved, and so on. But it all boils down the same thing: I have died to my flesh and I am alive to the Spirit, who has now become my guide in the place of the fuzziness of my conscience and the impersonal dictates of a written code of regulations.
But here’s the thing, and Romans is pretty clear about it: Even though I have participated in this glorious transition from death to life and flesh to Spirit, it is still quite possible to exit the world of the Spirit and conduct my life in the old way of the flesh. In fact, at a certain level it is inevitable. And that is okay, because the immediacy and finality of the transition takes time to filter through to my cognition and from thereon to my actions. Life unveils itself in a fashion that can only be described as hesitantly; like a woman who guards herself ferociously until convinced that the one who pledges a commitment to her can be trusted with her gifts. It’s all one glorious process of growth and ever-increasing intimacy, until we shed our previous allegiances; not because we have to but because we want to.
In Romans, love fulfils the law and meets its obligation because the problem of illicit desire, underlying all the works of the flesh, has been overcome by non-elicit desire.
An analogy might be suitable here: It is the love that I have for my wife that has delivered me from my attractions to other females. She is the fulfilment of the law my mother gave me when she warned me against a certain type of girl. The commandment could not sustain me, I must confess, and even my nagging conscience proved little help when I was swept away by adolescent lust. But all of it disappeared when the power of love for the girl of my dreams invaded my soul. Those girls now seem bland and boring in comparison to the love of my life. I no longer have a need for mother’s prescriptions.
In Romans, as in the rest of Scripture, immunization against desire and the actions that spring forth from it is found in the realm of love. The Bible is a story of greater love subduing lesser love. It is as simple as that. The two greatest commandments are great exactly because they contain the power to deliver human beings from all their vices and addictions . “If you love me you will obey my commands,” Jesus said, and he was not kidding.
It is here where the world of the Spirit and the world of the flesh part ways. The world of the Spirit is governed by the force of love – love for God and love for neighbour. The satisfaction of intimacy with God banishes the need to be satisfied in other ways. Contentment is the distinguishing characteristic of the true believer. Just and right living is no longer legislated from the outside in, but has become an unstoppable force of passion from the inside out.
If this is true, then it means spiritual growth is nothing but an ever-increasing awareness of the beauty and sufficiency of God; not as some or other doctrine of transcendence but as a very real moment-by-moment life experience. I am constantly being weaned off my infantile dependencies. My maturity exists in my ongoing discovery that the shepherd’s green fields and still waters surpass all other sources of nutrition. My childhood cries are substituted by a single confession: “I shall not want.”
But it also means something else. Those who have wandered back to the world of the flesh and its works have done so because of one reason only: They have broken the first and greatest commandment. They loved something outside of God more than God himself. And the reason for this is that they have found a satisfaction and release in that thing – a satisfaction and release that they never discovered in God.
“I need it,” the women quoted Ravi as saying. The great apologist understood and could defend the gospel better than anyone on the planet, but he had a need that was never satisfied in his walk with God. Whilst he excelled in the letter of Scripture, he failed in its spirit.
Ultimately, the great challenge is not to understand well, but to love well. I am convinced that our blindness and stubbornness in this regard constitutes the single biggest sin of the church of God in this present age.
This, I believe, is the word that God is speaking to us through the public disgrace of Ravi Zacharias.
naturalchurch mill m’mm 
Baie dankie Tobie!
Hi Anne-Marie. Hoop dit gaan goed met julle!
Your assessment must be the right one, Tobie. The answer must lie in that greater LOVER!
From a totally human, and yet ecclesiastical, point of view: what happened to his mentors, or did he consider himself above them? Of course we shall never know. Or was the pull of his lust stronger than the agape love of his fellow-disciples?
And then the crazy statistics: 43 countries over 30 years, etc… Years ago I remember how hard it was to successfully get someone like Trevor Hudson as a speaker for any church conference: he and his church council watched his work-load like a hawk. O, how grateful I am for the simple protocols laid down in my first year Pastoral Theology classes.
Many thanks Tobie.
How I wish some of our Christian critics would put away the big wagging finger in their glib condemnations (cf. Jn. 8).
PS. I should have read some of the report first, just listened to a summary a minute ago. Horrific!
Hi Errol. Thanks for the comments. Yes, it is a disturbing document to read. And it does appear that the ministry has to take at least some of the blame. I think the celebrity thing played a huge role in the whole mess, which is a different discussion altogether. Many blessings to the saints by the sea!
I just came across this.
Ravi’s Son Nathan is doubtful about the RZIM and the Investigation Agency’s Ethics.
He has started a website showing what he feels are discrepancies with the investigations with regular postings.
http://defendingravi.com/
Well said. So sad but the truth is ruthless and only a fool would deny the lessons to be learned.
Thanks for the response. You are so right.
I do not know much about Ravi’s personal life.
But this is what I experienced in my life:
One big problem is the *idolizing of ”spiritual disciplines”*.
It is as deadly as the *neglect of ”spiritual disciplines”* ( Hebrews 5:8, 1 Timothy 4:7,8 ) as it will slowly get us to rely on our will power ( *grit* – as the world calls it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H14bBuluwB8 ) and make us *drift from trusting in God’s Mercy* and waiting upon God for *“quickening ( Life-giving ) Grace”* ( Isaiah 40:30,31, Eph 2:1,5, 1 Timothy 6:13, Hebrews 4:12, 1 Peter 3:18, ) in continous sweet fellowship with God and thus it will *gradually make us thirsty first* then lead us to *weariness* and to *wantonness* and to *sin.* ( John 4:13,14 )
God has a remedy:
Isaiah 41:17 When *the poor and needy* seek water, and there is none, and their tongue is parched with thirst, I the LORD will answer them; I the God of Israel will not forsake them.
But one needs to be *poor and needy* which means he was *quite unsuccessful in practicing spiritual disciplines* by himself.
Matthew 5:3 “Blessed are the *poor in spirit,* for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
When a branch is cut off from the trunk there is still a residual life in it. So the branch does not sense death immediately. If it is in the comfort of the shade ( prosperity and ease ) it will wither much slower than a branch that is cut off to lie in the scorching Sun ( adversity ). But that residual life is really a death-giver and not a life-giver as it prevents compelling the branch to reunite with the trunk immediately. Many times “spiritual disciplines” function to maintain or enhance ( vanity ) this residual life rather than forcing it to get back to the trunk and remain is Rest ceasing from one’s own works ( Hebrews 4:10, John 15). Another drug that gives the same effect of successful “spiritual disciplines practice” is “the thrill of the success of continuous public ministry”.
This is what helped me in such times:
A Way of Growth
by T. Austin-Sparks
Chapter 1 – Living “Before the Lord” and “Unto the Lord”
https://www.austin-sparks.net/english/books/001718.html
Hi Siju
My wife Carla and I are making our way through The Law of Faith as per the link you provided. I am however interested to know what you mean when you talk about the “idolizing of spiritual disciplines”. As far as I can tell you don’t reference a scripture and so I was wondering. Also – are you talking about specific spiritual disciplines like Bible reading and Prayer or the ones that we think might commend us to God like fasting and tithing etc?
Regards
Marnus
Dear Marinus,
I was going to write more to you about family life and its related struggles.
I will do that sometime next week 🙂
My Wife’s hand is in the sling as she fell down and injured her left elbow tendons due to dislocation. We have another homeschooling family with us and their kids are waiting for some nature study activity outside. So I am a little busy for a few days currently juggling with things in the house… LOL!!!!
But on the idolizing of spiritual disciplines:
We see a lot of Christians come to the conclusion that “Bible Reading” & “Prayer” are the basis of spiritual life. But we find that even among them there are multitudes living under the “burden of condemnation” and guilt of “sins” because THEY HAVE TAKEN IT AS A LAW ( https://biblehub.com/romans/9-32.htm ). Should these disciplines neglect? By No way!!!! But are they the basis of our life? No! Then what is the basis of our life?
John 14:19 In a little while the world will see Me no more, but YOU WILL SEE ME. Because I live, you also will live. ( https://biblehub.com/john/14-19.htm )
I used to get up at 3 AM in the morning and either pray for 2 hours and read the bible for one hour or vice versa. Still, my inner life was going from bad to worse. I lived in a cycle of euphoric mountain top experiences to dysphoric/demonic “bottomless/miry pit” falls ( https://biblehub.com/psalms/40-2.htm ) which repeated every 2 weeks for about 20 years. There was no scarcity of “fastings”, “listening only to Gospel music & watching NO TV or movies lifestyle”, “attending church, and the weekday meetings”, “witnessing about Christ to others”, etc.
We need to know that the basis of our daily living is the ”LIFE OF CHRIST THAT WAS GIFTED TO US IN OUR UNWORTHINESS” ( https://biblehub.com/john/4-10.htm ) and we are made “worthy and effective” not by our “efforts”/”good works” ( https://biblehub.com/romans/10-4.htm ).
And our life is not transformed by what we do primarily. But by Whom we see ( https://biblehub.com/2_corinthians/3-18.htm ). The seeing comes first and that is the reason the Apostle Paul after giving the scripture to the Ephesian church prayed:
—–
I ask that the “EYES OF YOUR HEART MAY BE ENLIGHTENED”, so that you may know the hope of His calling, the riches of His glorious inheritance in the saints,” ( https://biblehub.com/ephesians/1-18.htm )
—–
Once we see Him ( maybe an aspect of Divine Nature, how He “IN US” is ) through “Holy Spirit illumination” then we can work out ( live according to ) what we see in Faith with reverence and awe because we see what God himself is working IN us and have the confidence that GOD CANNOT FAIL! ( https://biblia.com/bible/esv/philippians/2/12-13, https://biblehub.com/hebrews/12-28.htm , ).
But this puts us SOLELY AT THE MERCY OF GOD ( flesh hates that ) because this sight ( https://biblehub.com/galatians/1-16.htm, https://biblehub.com/matthew/11-27.htm ) is not given as a reward to bible study done by the natural mind ( https://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/2-14.htm ). Bible study done by the natural mind happens in the realm of the flesh/natural which consists of “IMAGINATIONS, ARGUMENTS, PROPOSITIONS & CONCLUSIONS” which do not have the SUBSTANCE of LIVING BREAD that gives/maintains life. And such bible study ( or ministry ) inevitably ends up in debates such as “Calvinism VS Arminianism”. It is like a hungry man given a fantastic menu in the restaurant, it tantalizes him but he is still hungry! And he does a deeper study about the dishes that he thinks will satisfy him and finds out their recipes and is thrilled for a time because of the discovery but faints because he has yet not got the meal!!!. He then slanders this hotel and goes to another hotel and repeats the same thing but still does not receive the meal that can sustain/maintain his life with “vitality to perform daily tasks “, “pleasure satisfy his longings”, and “comfort in times of troubles”.
New Covenant learning and ministry is NOT “learning and transferring concepts” but the broken and hungry being feed with “Living Bread by the Father” ( https://biblehub.com/matthew/5-6.htm ) and due to a “love overflow” ( https://biblehub.com/psalms/23-5.htm ) the same person is able to distribute “Living Bread in brokenness provided by Christ from the Father”
It may take some time to grasp this reality. So I welcome your further questions 🙂 regarding these!
The SUBSTANCE I am talking about is the SUPPLY OF THE HOLY SPIRIT ( https://biblehub.com/philippians/1-19.htm )
The deliverance from Romans 7 to Romans 8 is our emancipation from the realm of “IMAGINATIONS, ARGUMENTS, PROPOSITIONS & CONCLUSIONS” to the realm of SUBSTANCE.
From the knowledge of the “Law” to the experience of the “SUBSTANCE CHRIST”
These are a shadow of the things to come, but the body (substance ) that casts it belongs to Christ. ( https://biblehub.com/colossians/2-17.htm ).
May God give you Spiritual Vision 🙂
I am not going to lie I was hoping you would comment on these events.
This really shook me. My own decent into madness was very subtle. All I ultimately did was to exchange the ‘Lover of my soul’ for ‘the manifestation of the kingdom’. When things started to go south I thought I did something wrong and so I prayed that God would help me control my anger and lust while I kept on burning myself out on the expectation of “if I can just get through this valley God will manifest His kingdom and everything will be fine”.
I now understand that even if Jesus himself appears to you and promises you the very translation of heaven into your house you should not take you eyes off of Him for a second. O how I wish I could reach back to my younger self and just tell him to stop “chasing the dream” and just wait on God without doing anything because God is the dream.
Anyway when things were at their lowest it was the ministries of Ravi and apologists like him that essentially kept me going. I was playing out a kind of Pascal’s Wager as I could never, and still can’t, convince myself that life without an eternal loving creator has any ultimate meaning.
Losing my salvation is one of my greatest fears to the point where even I acknowledge that it is sometimes irrational and can become its own sin. I am working out my fears with fear and trembling :-). I find it difficult to understand how a person can have such a wonderful revelation of who God is and yet….
Thanks for calling me back to my first love.
Dear Marinus,
I do understand your perplexity and shock.
Ravi is the one who kept my “ever-rollacoastering” emotional/sentimental charismatic beginnings on the rails of sound wisdom. Around 15 years or so back I devoured everything I got from his website and others from “Just Thinking”, “Let my people think” & “Slice of infinity”. And quite recently I was introduced to the ministry of “Mark Yarhouse” ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_l_grc5Imk ) which was beneficial to me as I myself had gone through “Gender Identity Crisis” ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDT-Yj5n6zE&t=627s ) and contemplated surgery to change gender and join up with the BDSM community etc. even after becoming tongues-speaking christian. But I never got a “Union consciousness” from Ravi’s talks which are excellent in terms of apologetics and in other areas. I started in the way of understanding and experiencing “Union Consciousness” listening first to David Wilkerson, then Paris Reidhead, then Leonard Ravenhill, then A W Tozer, and then Hudson Taylor, T Austin Sparks, Norman Grubb, Andrew Murray, A B Simpson, Ian Thomas, Eberhard Arnold, and others to mention a few. It was a gradual process but my Bipolar Mania combined with my thorough addiction to psychiatric drugs, alcohol, and violent Femdom porn forced me to seek something more than what the best evangelical preacher would give. And God did meet me one day after 20 years of search after being born again. It was a gradual unveiling for me until one day I realized what real faith is from:
The Swaying Battle of Faith ( http://articles.ochristian.com/article12830.shtml )
Full Assurance of Faith ( http://articles.ochristian.com/article12831.shtml )
and stepped out of my boat to walk on water by A FAITH THAT WAS GIFTED to me by God.
Unless we come to the acknowledgment of our “Union Consciousness” with Christ ( acknowledgment of the mystery – https://biblehub.com/colossians/2-2.htm ) we are still sitting in the boat of our “how-tos/laws/doctrines/rules/”steps to victory”/”spiritual disciplines” and our survival depends on the survival of the boat. And that boat does get shattered as we see in the life of Apostle Paul. And God himself shatters the boat so that the “things that are shaken” may be removed ( Hebrews 12:27 ). Once we step out of the boat there is nothing more we can do to keep/protect us from sinking. Our only Hope is to be “kept by the power of God through Faith” ( 1 Peter 1:5 ). We are cast entirely on the mercy of God. And we can only keep ourselves by putting all of our trust in the “Eternal Love of God” ( Jude 1:21 ) and “His character of Faithfulness” which he cannot deny us ( 2 timothy 2:13 ) even when we fail due to lack of faith at times “swayed or struck down” ( 2 Corinthians 4:9 ) by the “assault of the visible” and the “argument of the seeming” ( 2 Corinthians 4:17,18 ). Jesus is quick to uphold us at such times as we see in the life of Peter who got swayed by the appearance of the storm which can only sink the boat and not Peter because he was not sustained by the boat but sustained by the unseen spiritual Rock that followed him ( 1 Corinthians 10:4 ).
God has elected you and called you and given you a throne ( Ephesians 2:6 ) which He won’t take away ( Hebrews 6:16-20 ). Now make your election and calling sure for yourself ( 2 Peter 1:10 ) by sitting/resting and waiting ( Hebrews 4:10 ) till God ( not yourself ) makes your enemies your footstool. Follow your Husband that way ( Hebrews 1:13, Hebrews 2:8,9 ) by sitting and resting and waiting for God ( Isaiah 40:30,31 ).
In both these attitudes:
How great “I” am!
Oh poor me(“I”)!
There appears an independent “I”. The serpent’s cunning is to make us believe that the former is “pride” and the latter is “humility”. No! Both are pride!!
A person who suffers from an “inferiority complex” suffers because he is “under a Law” by which he judges himself to be inferior to something or someone. With the same Law at another time, he will judge someone else to be inferior to him and show a “superiority complex” though it is done in a passive or hidden way.
We don’t want both those attitudes that retain an independent “I”. We get rid of the independent “I” by gazing at the lamb of God which gives us the attitude.
WORTHY IS THE LAMB!!!!!! ( Revelation 5:12 )
which has no “I” in it.
Yet at present, we do not see everything subject to man….. ( https://biblehub.com/hebrews/2-8.htm )
But we see Jesus…… ( https://biblehub.com/hebrews/2-9.htm )
Hebrews 2:2 Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author, and perfecter of our faith…..
Hosea 2:16 In that day,” declares the LORD, “you will call Me ‘my Husband,’ and no longer call Me ‘my Master.’
May God lead you through, and may you never lack patience in His dealings, may He sustain you in your weariness of the Journey that fixes you in your “Union Consciousness”. ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-CG8IzC6o8 )
Love 🙂
Thank you very much for the encouragement.
Marinus and Siju – thanks for your responses and comments. You have a great conversation going and it is a blessing to follow it!
Thank you for accomodating large comments in your blog… I don’t have to overcome the sense of awkwardness every time I write…. 🙂 Lol!!!
I felt obliged to share some of my own story for the sake of context. But then when I started I could not stop myself not realizing how much I needed this. I don’t know if this length and in depth revelation of my private life is appropriate but I offer it nonetheless that it will not be posted if inappropriate.
I have always been a skeptical soul but while faith doesn’t come to me naturally I have always understood very clearly and on a very deep foundational level that a life without God is ultimately meaningless and absurd
(see William Lane Craig’s essay : the absurdity of a life without God https://www.reasonablefaith.org/writings/popular-writings/existence-nature-of-god/the-absurdity-of-life-without-god/ )
This lead to seeking after an assurance of faith which, to be honest never came to this day, at least not the kind that doubting Thomas was looking for. During my teenage years while seeking after Jesus I came across the Charismatic movement and “suitably called the manifestations of tongues that I saw the work of the devil” – only to later realize that I had probably committed that blasphemy against the Spirit. It is only after wrestling through it with Tobie backing me up on his blog that I was ultimately able to put it behind me much later in life. In short – doubt and accusations has always been nagging at my soul. I tend to lean to words obsessive thoughts and as a child I showed compulsive behavior. I outgrew most of it and the truths of Christianity laid much of my claustrophobia and obsessive thoughts to rest.
Then in my third year of University I read a book by Max Lucado, no wonder they called him the savior, and it finally dawned on me that Jesus really and truly loves me for me. I fell totally head over heals in love and sold my soul to the carpenter from Nazareth. At this point I had joined the church band and I was going from strength to strength. I stopped going to clubs and turned my back on pornography for the last time. Jesus never felt so near as during that time and I had every reason to believe that God was with me and for me. I was dead to sin and alive to God. I still made serious errors but I left them behind as they happened and stretched myself out to what was ahead and each fall actually became a moment of revelation towards greater victory. Life had never been this good.
During this time my father died and I greatly mourned his loss, because we never had an intimate relationship, while Jesus had my back. I remember this time as bittersweet.
Then during my “spiritual travels” and towards the end of my studies (5th and 6th year) I got involved with a girl that I had known for several years. Me and my friends were instrumental in this girl’s deliverance from “multiple personalities”. We prayed a whole month and this is the one time in my life where I look back and realize God spoke tangibly to me. At the time of her deliverance this girl was already on fire for Jesus and afterwards she underwent a remarkable transformation – I was captivated. I did however have mixed feelings in the beginning but after I took them to the Lord and committed emotionally to the relationship my feelings settled into a strong and exciting love for her that I have to this day.
We got married in a very unconventional way. I felt God spoke to me and there were lots of “signs” that I still can’t completely poke holes into. All in all I still want to believe and in a way still do that our relationship carried God’s favor and that we were meant by God to be together – I don’t believe in soul mates but I do believe that some are chosen / guided in a specific way. We made our vows before God and called friends as witnesses and moved in together believing with all our hearts that our covenant was with God first. We only made it official about 8 months later. However it very quickly became clear that we were a terrible match. We seemed to know exactly which buttons to push in order to hurt the other one deeply. And we were surprisingly adept at it. Our fights became more aggressive and it wasn’t long before domestic violence became a very real part of our arguments.
This shocked me deeply because, while I was struggling with aggression as a child, I did not think I was capable of hitting my own wife. Also I had every reason to believe that being born again I “received a new heart” and after being pruned heavily for a season (I was kicked out of the Church band) I had no real problems with aggression. Before I got married I was truly dead to sin and alive to God and the fruits in my personal life were clearly seen by all. I had no reason to doubt my salvation and no reason to doubt my future in Christ. Make no mistake I was still skeptical and deeply afraid of dying but the fruit in my life were so unmistakable that even I could not deny them. Up to that point of course.
Then after the marriage as things went South my wife had secretly been dealing with her own problems. She still haven’t recovered psychologically and even though ‘delivered’ from the oppression that saw her trying to commit suicide multiple times she was still dealing with so much pain from her past history of abuse in the home, that she grew up in, that she couldn’t help projecting all that pain onto me when I started behaving in a way that was similar to that of her own parents.
To cope she started taking money behind my back and spending it – she had to invent lies of course to keep me from becoming suspicious. Now to be fair she had already lied about significant events but this matter was the final straw that broke her. I had my own psychological reasons for not keeping track of where the money was going. Carla received quite a powerful word from God about our future in the very beginning of our marriage, which I can confirm today is at least partially true and I desperately wanted this to be true in totality because it dealt with all my existential crisis at once. Knowing that God had a very clear purpose for me that I was going to see play out in front of my eyes would solidify my faith and take care of the last few of the doubts that I had left. Jesus knew me it seemed and life had meaning.
But then came the accusations followed by more violence. The lies got worse and worse and my depression resurfaced because I felt like I was going crazy and God had abandoned me. I went through a cycle of moving to one job looking for the “house of healing” that God promised only to discover “this is not it” and then quit my job or transfer to the next town. Suffice to say we relocated to 26 different houses (granted not all of them in a different town) over the course of approximately 15 years. All the time I was hitting my wife and waiting for God to sanctify me and fulfill His promise to me. She was stealing and lying in an effort to cover her own skin and to uphold me because I was so depressed at that point I made it clear that I would welcome death if it came knocking. Not all of the guidance was completely filtered through Carla though and so I had good reason to believe that at least foundationally God was guiding us. One of my friends and an elder at our church received a word from God about me in private practice with “something about one of the local GP’s”. At that point I had accepted a position with this GP in question’s brother in law, without him (the elder) knowing about it, and we took this as confirmation that we were on the right track with the blessing of the elder. However 4 years later I had to once again admit defeat when this very same GP that I was working for left for Ireland and his partner did not want to give me a job. I started my own surgery and lasted for 2 more years but with my marriage in pieces and me working desperately hard and seemingly for nothing I burnt out and had to quit and go back to the government.
This is when I started watching pornography again. In my desperation I started doing online research and found Calvanism. I pretty much were immediately convinced that I could not possibly be elect and the first seeds of real doubt were planted. Seeds that, to this day, I have not been able to completely shake. A cycle of rinse and repeat would ensure. I would resist porn. The accusation and the insults would come. I would snap and behave violently. My wife would withdraw emotionally and I would watch porn. Only to tell her that I watched porn and try to repent – and thus the whole ugly circle would repeat itself. It got so bad that at one point I went to the police to try and hand myself over but the police told me that “without her filing a case I could not be charged with anything”. So with the encouragement of the ‘Kaptein’ I went home and tried again. At this point I had stopped going to church and read Bible and my prayer life was in shambles. I had been rejected by church folk so many time that it was near impossible not to believe it anymore. One of the prominent reverent ministers told my wife that I was irredeemable and that she should divorce me. My wife was a Christian and I believe as saved as she could possibly be but she was actively praying for my death at times and I said things to her that no man should ever say to his wife. I broke in front of another pastor and when I asked him “what now” he simply said “I don’t know – you failed in your marriage”. I have lost count of the people that I respected to a degree that told me there is something fundamentally wrong with me But I fully grant that I took it all out on Carla in ways that I am still ashamed of to this day.
It ended somehow when we came to Grahamstown and my partnership with the local GP’s failed once again for the hundredth time. I effectively turned my back on the prophesy and everything that I thought God was in my life. I embraced the idea of being an agnostic Christian and I went for secular psychoterapy and for the first time I pushed through. During psychotherapy my anger was allowed to surface and I told the therapist that I dream about really hurting my wife. He said to me that he would have to then phone her and warn her and I basically said “do what you have to I don’t care anymore”. I went back to work and when I was wrapping up at the end of the day the police were knocking on my door with a temporary protection order. This broke the circle of violence. I used the protection order to fuel my intention of getting our problems out in the open and getting the help that I need – having a sword over my head was exactly the stimulus that I needed. This finally allowed her to also embrace some of the anger that she felt towards me as well. Our love for each other runs extremely deep though and we were back together emotionally before we even went to court. We did go to court though and the protection order was finalized. I was not allowed to go to the house as long as the protection order was in place and I was not allowed to say certain things and make certain threats. We worked on our relationship from a distance. I went back to therapy and that time was the last time I ever lifted my hands to my wife. I am completely violence free for a number of years now and I am praying that I will never go back – so far so good. The porn addiction was not so easy. Because essentially our relationship was still toxic I still fell into porn when things became to much. During this time I cursed God in font of her out of shear pain and anger – by His grace I was allowed to live and I became acutely aware of how much God was willing to put up with in the willingness that all should come to repentance. This fact alone makes God worthy of worship.
But I also realized below the surface that ultimately the woman that I loved more than anything was ultimately an idol to me. I pulled away from my family and went back to church. This was a mistake because my children were deeply traumatized by our perpetual separations and me rebuilding my life without them was never going to be a good idea but it was all I had strength for. Also when I was at my worst I said things to my children that no Father should ever say. Honestly I said things that I recoil at today and my son and daughter are still baring the scars. We are slowly rebuilding and I am so thankful for the opportunity to try again and again. Despite all this I slowly went back to church, started going to home cell and discussed my problems openly with one of the elders. This man mentored me and was the first one to seemingly unconditionally accept me and together with therapy I was able to confront a lot of my own problems and slowly I grew spiritually back to the idea that there may be hope for me. Just hope – nothing more. The anger was still there and I started pushing back against my wife’s accusations and this ignited the residual violence in her and she abused me a few times. Things escalated once again but this time I was in full control of my anger and I was ready to attack when attacked. Not with physical violence this time but with words. I, however, started sensing that Jesus does not want me to repay evil for evil but I did not even come close to having the strength to turn the other cheek. Our arguments escalated and I used more sophisticated and socially acceptable means of telling her that she is worthless and evil while she in turn built an emotional wall around her and the kids to shut me out with the pain. I had given up on any prophetic / significant future with her and the kids at this point and we were both in survival mode.
The last time I watched pornography was end of 2019 I think. I was in so much pain that I wanted to destroy my marriage. So I did the only “logical thing” and I went on dating sites and I approached a prostitute online. I informed Carla of my intentions and gave her “one last chance”. Something that I now regret but see no other way for me to have acted otherwise at the time. I had however, when I started picking myself up financially, taken great steps in making sure that I was not able to spend my money inappropriately and so actually engaging the prostitute failed miserably because I did not have access to my bank accounts. Nevertheless during the whole ordeal – as I was pleading with God to kill me I had a transcendent experience while sitting in the bath. I felt transported in the spirit to a future time when I had already cheated on Carla. It felt like God was showing me. “See – you have now cheated on Carla and everything is still the same – nothing that you wanted to accomplish happened the way you thought it would”. Al that happened was that I caused a lot of pain, broke my marriage and it did not help anybody including me. A light dawned on me and I did not back to porn after that. By God’s grace I am completely free from pornography.
Then Covid struck and I got it.
Then I got out of it.
Then Carla filed ford divorce and subsequently withdrew.
I started resisting her reality – something that needed to be done but not in the harsh manner that I did it. I attacked her in front of others. I felt like I was making a final stand for my reality. The problem was that the things that I said needed to be said but not in the context in which I said them and not in the way that I said them.
It ended with her making an attempt at her life and failing.
She spent three weeks in hospital and received a lot of the truth she needed and had a supernatural experience of Jesus which I am deeply thankful for. She left with an assurance of her own salvation that I can only dream of and feels ever so slightly envious of her when I am not simply thankful that she is still alive and was given back to me in one piece.
This seems to have been the “final shock” that we needed. To come so close to losing everything. We both decided that the way forward is to forgive and to forget. We have been living in peace for the last two months with only minor arguments that are quickly nipped in the but. After being through so much hell there is almost no desire for vindication anymore. We both take great care in what we say and we both try to accommodate the other as much as possible.
5 weeks ago I got physically ill getting the same symptoms of Covid that I had in the beginning – the were not so strong but they were unmistakable and in some ways even worse. Hot flushes, brain fog and extreme thirst. I am currently undergoing investigations. The symptoms are so outside the box that nobody so far can point to anything specific. I tested for covid antibodies and it turns out my antibodies have faded. The rest is medically normal so far. I am going for endoscopy tomorrow. During this time I wrestled with God and I woke up in the middle of the night half asleep. During this time I was asked whether I wanted to live or die. In the dream I was separated emotionally from my wife and kids. I said honestly to God that I wouldn’t mind dying but that I want His will to be done. Then I woke up the next morning only to realize that in a way saying I wanted to die was not fair to my wife and kids. I see how desperately they still need a dad and Carla and I have told each other that we are not sure if we can raise the kids without the other’s hep. And so I have been praying for life not knowing what the future holds. I am scared that I might have paraneoplastic syndrome but a part of me thinks this is just “long covid” aggravated by all the extreme stress from the last year.
And so at the moment I find myself praying and waiting for God. I am finally done with all attempts at figuring out if God really exists and whether there is a plan for my life. I am just pleading and waiting. I wrestle with the Ravi thing because, to my brain, the whole thing is a contradiction. I don’t understand if Ravi ever really believed. And if he did how could he have failed at something (in Tobie’s words) we can’t do ourselves anyway. I am painfully aware that if God did not save Ravi from such a terrible sin then I am not sure that I will be okay either. And without assurance of salvation any spiritual walk immediately becomes near impossible.
But then even as I am saying this I can confirm that my prayers and attempts at waiting are slowly paying off. The atmosphere in my house is improving and my kids are speaking to me again. If I am allowed to live then I can actually see the current trajectory finally going somewhere positive. And that fills my heart with joy. My biggest challenge at the moment is to put the result of whether Carla and I would live or die in God’s hands and leave it there. We both agreed that we cannot allow each other to become an idol again. Hence I talked about struggling with desire. I feel that in a way I love Carla too much. I know this is a lie because loving her would mean wanting her ultimate best and that would mean releasing her to God when the time is right. But in my carnal state I cannot imagine a life without her. We have been to hell and back and we still love each other more than life itself. And I cannot imagine leaving her to raise the kids by herself. I love her dearly and all I ultimately want is for her to be fulfilled in life. I am of course trying to get out of God’s way to make that happen and I am submitting the fear of death to the only place where I know. It is clear to me that I believe in God when I see the amount of effort that I go through for someone that I don’t no for sure will accept me. Where do we draw the line. At what point does someone get their salvation only to loose it again? If Ravi’s testimony of being saved from a suicide bed is true then I don’t understand how he ultimately walked away from it. The fact that he took his sin to the grave does not bode well for his eternal future but that is exactly the point. Does God save people so dramatically only to allow them to walk away? If Ravi was saved at some point and now is not anymore then I am asking myself why God did not take his life sooner / before things got so far out of hand? I have a feeling that I myself am still here but the battle is raging. I sense a great peace behind the scenes that I desperately want to be true. But I am clearly done with “understanding” God’s ways.
Thank you for letting me vent. When I started I had no idea how much was cropped inside.
Sincerely
Marinus
Dear Marinus,
I read only three paragraphs from this as I am busy and about to travel.
But I felt like looking in the mirror.
Your life resembles mine in many ways.
I will share some inappropriate things from my life also to comfort you… LOl!!!
We will put the burden of censorship on Tobie 😉
I Will read the whole thing and reply in a few days…
Some inappropriate things shared are the greatest blessing to people with secret struggles.
There are people in the church suffering from cancer and about to die but the medicine is not distributed because some healthy people in the room do not like its smell…. I do trample upon the preferences of healthy people to provide medicine….
Love
Siju
Dear Marinus,
As for you doubting character and being a “skeptical soul” I share your infirmity as I did say during our zoom meeting. But I want you to read this article of NPG which says “DOUBT IS THE LIFE BLOOD OF FAITH” —>
“seeking after an assurance of faith” could be a trap because God is always in the process of perfecting our faith. In Front of the Red Sea God parted it before they crossed over. But in Jordan the priests had to step into the “death waters of overflowing Jordan” to make it part.
BUT JORDAN ( DEATH ) DID PART ( GIVE WAY WITHOUT OBSTRUCTING )!!!
So you may have to cease from your work ( Hebrews 4:10 ) of “seeking after assurance” and just rest and let God bring it to you in His own way. I had to do it that way. But doubt never left me entirely. And I don’t care now much about my doubts because we know there is a person who is insinuating us with materials to make us doubt God. So doubt should be a common thing as long as “the whole world is under the sway of the wicked one” ( https://biblehub.com/1_john/5-19.htm ). Even as I type this I have my doubts about my neck and fingers and have to take the Life available to the new creation by faith ( https://www.austin-sparks.net/english/books/002996.html ) which becomes difficult the more I type as the more my hand pains.
The “ASSAULT OF THE VISIBLE” or the “ARGUMENT OF THE SEEMING” in my case my bodily pain as I sit and type and the fear that I am “ruining my health” has to be overcome by faith that Christ will uphold my neck ( https://biblehub.com/hebrews/1-3.htm ) and give power to my fingers ( https://biblehub.com/isaiah/40-29.htm ) to complete this response. And I am/was never 100% sure of what God wanted me to do but always followed the dictates/compulsions of God’s love ( https://biblehub.com/2_corinthians/5-14.htm ) and left the 30-40% of unsurety to God’s mercy!
The Devil wants to shout to us through our senses that “FLESH IS REAL”.
But from the Scripture we know that the flesh is like grass, transient, but it is the Word of God that abides forever which is REAL. ( https://biblehub.com/1_peter/1-24.htm ).
SO SOMETIMES WE NEED TO CLOSE OUR EYES TO SEE CLEARLY! LOL!!!
About “doubt and accusations has always been nagging at my soul.” I have to say that that is precisely what the messenger of Satan buffets us with ( https://biblehub.com/2_corinthians/12-7.htm ). Messenger brings a message from his master. A messenger of Satan brings a message of guilt/accusation and all the rest that will feed our engine of self effort to keep running! Being an ex-Satanist I have done more in terms of what would be called blaspheming the Holy Spirit even after becoming a tongues speaking Christian. But the depths of our sins only uncover the Depths of God’s Love and Grace. Because there is not one sin Christ failed to atone for and there is not one sin which cannot be forgiven. Dee Dee told me once that the “unforgivable sin is not forgiven because forgiveness is not its answer!”
BUT FAITH IS ITS ANSWER!
So let not the devil catch you with recursive logic!
I also did not have an intimate relationship with my parents as I was a runaway to boarding school at the age of 9. When my mother died 10 years or so ago I was relieved and thanked the Lord because her presence always increased my guilty feeling. Even today as I was praying for my father who stays with me I was grieved about the lack of intimacy between us. Well it is good in one way that it made me play even more with my two year old son.
You are lucky to have been able to marry the one you loved. I could not because the pastor told me it was not God’s will and I submitted. So when I met my wife for the first time I had to confess to her that I could not love her because I loved another and I could not even assure marital fidelity since I am in a very bad condition mentally and emotionally. Well we spoke for 45 minutes and I never expected her to marry me as everyone rejected me when they knew I had psychiatric problems. But she did marry me and stuck through all the years of my insanity. Normally women stay away or divorce in cases such as mine but God did not let her do that!
Well my wife and I are a terrible match too. I felt like a “mule yoked to a race horse” when I married her. But God has been adjusting our speeds… LOL!!! As for domestic violence the police had come to our house with the loud beepers at 11 PM once with the whole village surrounded around our house to find out who committed suicide. So I think I don’t have to go into the details.
Much of what your wife did to you is what I did to my wife.
Calvinism took me also for a no-elect ride first!
Then it took me for an elect-pride-fear ride!
Both rides were equally vain!
I was a chronic relapser to all de-addiction programs but after I had victory through the experience of Exchanged Life I put this document http://bit.ly/2LnIljl for those who think they are going through “strange trials” due to porn addiction. I was considered as one who really did not want deliverance due to my chronic relapsing tendencies and was rejected by the builders ( https://biblehub.com/matthew/21-42.htm ) then the Lord did the marvelous work!
I had even got an injection which would make me vomit if I smelled/drank alcohol to get me out of Nitrazepam-Alcohol and other psychiatric pills abuse/addiction.
I think your problem with desire as you express it is because you LIVE IN A CONSCIOUSNESS OF SEPARATION FROM GOD and it will be solved once you become FIXED WITH YOUR UNION WITH CHRIST.
In my case it was not that I loved my wife more than God but I loved myself more than anybody. I took an online test for narcissistic personality disorder at that time and got very high marks lol!!! And advise to take treatment ASAP!
My release came when one day the Lord revealed me about the “mystery of marriage”. We are one body! That helped me not to look at marriage in terms of a covenant! I just look at it as a marvelous thing God has done making us one body! And we are only vessels of Christ. I am not my wife’s real husband!
CHRIST IS!
I am only His vessel and A NON-SPECIAL EARTHEN ONE ( https://biblehub.com/2_corinthians/4-7.htm ) And at any time Christ can kill me and give her another husband! Similarly I am not to look at her with her infirmities! I need to look at her as a vessel in which Christ dwells!l ( https://biblehub.com/ephesians/5-21.htm ) And we both are in the hands of a master craftsman. To criticize her ( or myself ) would be to criticize the Potter which is foolish!
Isaiah 45:9 “What sorrow awaits those who argue with their Creator. Does a clay pot argue with its maker? Does the clay dispute with the one who shapes it, saying, ‘Stop, you’re doing it wrong!’ Does the pot exclaim, ‘How clumsy can you be?’
I realized that If I let Christ live through me as her husband then Christ will share His joy with me during the troubling times I have with her infirmities.
I DO NOT DELIGHT IN HER!
BUT CHRIST DELIGHTS IN HER!
And if I do not rebel ( https://biblehub.com/numbers/14-9.htm ) Christ will share His delight for her as He lives through me as her husband! I started learning this only about 2 years back or so and is stumbling at times but all the times I have stumbled are the times when I felt superior to her and was not receiving the Grace given to the humble ( https://biblehub.com/james/4-6.htm )
Dear Marinus, we need not see our wife or anything in this universe as competing with God for love!
If we love them fervently then it is God loving them through us.
One of the things I realized in marriage was that the indebtedness I had towards my wife for sticking with me through the terrible times of abuse could not even produce one iota of Agape in me towards her! It had to be poured into me by the Lord! So If I love her fervently I know it is the Lord! If I don’t feel love towards her I just don’t worry about “loveless feelings” and I justI move on because 1 CORINTHIANS 13 TELLS US WHAT REAL LOVE LOOKS LIKE!
“HUSBANDS! LOVE YOUR WIFES LIKE CHRIST LOVED THE CHURCH” taken as a law will really kill us. It killed me so I just started where the Spirit led me to initially…
Husbands, love your wives, and BE NOT BITTER against them. ( https://biblehub.com/james/4-6.htm ). As I allowed Christ to live through me my bitterness slowly melted away but I have not yet come to the place I love her like Christ! And I cast that care upon the Lord ( https://biblehub.com/1_peter/5-7.htm ) because it is His work to make me like that! ( https://biblehub.com/ezekiel/36-27.htm, https://biblehub.com/philippians/2-13.htm , https://biblehub.com/romans/9-16.htm )
I think your problem is because you are still TRYING TO LIVE BY THE FIRST COMMANDMENT in the 10 commandments!
We died to those commandments!
Not only that, those commandments were taken out of the way and nailed to the cross so that the evil powers cannot make us feel guilty by saying things like “YOU DID THAT” or “YOU DID NOT DO THAT” ( https://www.austin-sparks.net/english/002099.html )
Colossians 2:13-15 13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us WITH ITS LEGAL DEMANDS ( Law including 10 commandments ). This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. 15 He disarmed the rulers and authorities[a] and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him.[b]
You need not see your wife and God as two objects competing for your love but you live by the faith that YOU DIED AND CHRIST LIVES IN YOU ( https://biblehub.com/galatians/2-20.htm ) AND THE LOVE THAT YOU HAVE TOWARDS YOUR WIFE IS CHRIST’S LOVE TOWARDS HER THROUGH YOU who is only His vessel! So Rejoice!!!
LOVE
Dear Marinus,
You may like “The Unpardonable Sin” by TAS
Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYWhHngbQLI
MP3: http://www.austin-sparks.net/TAS0061.mp3
I came across it by accident during my struggle with obsessions of having “Blasphemed the Holy Spirit”
This was another portion TAS that helped me during years of mental hospital visits and hospitalizations and visits to the abyss of having committed the unpardonable sin.
=====
LIFE IS DEEPER THAN OUR CONSCIOUSNESS
We close by referring to this one point. We must seek always to believe in the fact that this Divine life, with all its tremendous potencies, is far deeper down than surrounding conditions and circumstances, than our own physical life, and than our own soul-life. Unless we grasp that, hold that firmly, we have not the ground of victory. When we feel that death is working with such tremendous force in the realm of our bodies or our souls, and everything in this sentient life of ours speaks of death, we are too often in danger of surrendering the whole position. I believe that this thing which is of God is deeper than our mortal being. I believe that it is possible even for children of God, being truly born again and possessing eternal life, to lose their reason and go into an asylum, and yet to have no change made in the deepest fact and reality of the being in relation to the Lord. We touch that point to indicate what we mean – that if our rational life is the sum total of our life, then it is a poor look-out for us. If our sanity, our natural mental balance, is the ground of our being children of God, then some from time to time would have real reason to doubt whether they were born again. And if that is true in the mental, it is true in the physical. This life of the Lord is far deeper than this mortal life of ours.
I am going to say something which may, to some, sound very terrible. It may perplex some, but it may help others. It is this: it is possible for a true child or servant of God, living in true fellowship with Him and walking in the light as far as they have it, to pass through a time of deep and terrible darkness. At such a time it may seem as though the Lord has left them and that Satan has taken His place of government. Prayer seems impossible or useless, and the Bible closed. Evil seems triumphant. The promises of God never to leave nor in anywise to forsake seem to have failed. Things may seem to be even worse than that, and one’s salvation may be brought into question. Such has been the experience of some of the most saintly, devoted, and God-used servants of the Lord. Abraham had it (Genesis 15:12). Jeremiah knew it (Jeremiah 20:7). David knew it (Psalm 22). Job knew it. Our Lord Jesus knew it (Matthew 27:46). Dr. A. B. Simpson had this experience near the end of his wonderful life for God. And so it has been with others.
What is the explanation? With all my heart I do not believe that this seeming forsakenness is true, however real it may seem. In many cases it is because those concerned have done so much damage to the kingdom of Satan that he has rallied all his forces to quench their life and testimony. Or it may be that the enemy has discerned the potential value of a life which will be a menace to his interests. But, whether either of these explanations be true or not so, the fact remains that, where the Lord Jesus truly is, the battle for life often assumes most serious forms. Sometimes it is a devastating and desolating experience.
We need to remember that these are spiritual forces, and spiritual forces stand at no physical barriers. We have a soul, a great nervous system. Children of God for many reasons, and very often after a time of pouring out spiritually, will find their nerves are all a jangle, and they feel anything but good and holy. But are you going to say that that means that after all they are not children of God, and that it is all a myth? Do you mean to say that Elijah was no longer the prophet of the Most High when he cast himself under the juniper tree and asked the Lord to take away his life? He was still the servant of God, still as true to God as ever. We are not trying to excuse our weaknesses, but trying to get to the heart of a situation. That does not argue that the Lord has forsaken, that the Lord is not there, and that such are not the Lord’s children or His servants. It indicates that the enemy has made them marked men or women because of something he is trying to destroy in the life. If you get into that realm, do not accept the suggestions of the enemy or seek to interpret things in the light of circumstances.
If you do not understand this that we are saying, do not strive after an explanation, and please do not put your own construction upon it. There are some who know what it is to have such an assault upon their being, their physical and nervous life as to make them feel that they are lost. I do not believe that it means that they are lost, and it is because some people accept that suggestion from the tempter that they sink into darkness. Oh, that many of these people who feel this thing upon them could know what we are trying to say, that it is for the spirit to rise up in faith and refuse the argument of the seeming! The seeming is sometimes so terribly real. People who have not suffered sometimes say to us: ‘It only seems to be so; it is not really so!’ And we reply: ‘You do not know what you are talking about! It is more real than anything else to those concerned.’ But the Lord will teach us as we go on not to accept that as the final thing. There is something deeper than that. The Lord is deeper than our physical feelings. The Lord is deeper than our soul.
Let me say here what I have said elsewhere. There are times and situations when ordinary lines of communication with a child of God are suspended. They are in a state of unconsciousness. It is useless to speak to them, for they can make no response. But if you pray, so often there is a response, not in words, but deeper than natural consciousness. You touch something deeper; it is the spirit, and spirit responds to spirit. We have known this to happen, even to the point of a hand-squeeze, or a facial glow. It is the mystery of Divine life.
Excerpt from: https://www.austin-sparks.net/english/books/000706.html
Will write more soon 🙂
LOVE
Thank you very much this was indeed helpful to reaffirm me as I had my all my foundations shaken out from under me this year. In my younger days I basically came to the same conclusion when my faith in God’s word was more secure and my Bible study flowed more spontaneously – my doubts have been existential in nature for most of my life but recently even my theology took a beating. Tobie helped me to understand the necessary application of the complete manifestation of the kingdom before one can even begin to blaspheme the Spirit. Tobie was also the first person, that I listened to, to suggest that just because one has committed said sin doesn’t necessarily mean that you can’t repent of it. Whether one who has committed the sin would even want to repent (since as TAS points out how God hardened Pharo’s heart after he hardened his own) is a different matter altogether but the thought that it was even an option never occurred to me as I have never thought of Jesus’ death in a more universalist sense. I now understand that the Blasphemy against the Spirit simply confirms what Christians have been saying all this time. That in the end it ultimately only matters what you do with the revelation of Jesus that you have received. Where I am stumbling is in the necessity of that revelation to bear fruit. In my life the fruit has been exactly the opposite and I simply can’t seem to find the balance between 1. Resting in the finished work of Christ and 2. Failing to love well like Ravi. The love of God has been under attack in my life since the very beginning which is ironic because it is one of the few things I have prayed for most consistently. Granted I played my part often looking for “quick fixes” and “mountain experiences” like you mention. I am still here by grace waiting for more.
Regards
To give a quick reply 🙂
If you listen to the missionary Paris Reidhead and his own struggles as an African Missionary in His Sermon “Ten Shekels and a Shirt”
Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDQC45_RA2c
MP3: https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=282&commentView=itemComments
Text: http://www.parisreidheadbibleteachingministries.org/Ten_Shekels_and_A_Shirt.html
He says anybody who will get a real blessing from the Lord will have to repent of the Serpent’s Gospel which says “God exists for the happiness of Man” and turn to the real Gospel which says “Man exists for the Glory of God” where enduring joy/happiness is a byproduct rather than a prime product.
And all those who go through these fears ( Relax, you are in good company – https://www.ocduk.org/ocd/history-of-ocd/martin-luther/ ) of unpardonable sin come to a point where they say.
“Send me to Hell God for you are Righteous and Loving.”
I still remember walking on the road with tears, mustering courage to desert my wife and only daughter who was 3 or 4 years at that time, and wanting to live like an Aghori ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hiKDMsIHn8 ) “walking nude”, “taking drugs” and “eating human corpses” because my thoughts were continually perverse, rotten to the core and openly blasphemous. After 15 years of tongues speaking christianity I found that I loved Judas Priest’s song “A touch of Evil” and found it more relieving than the bible and hymns and the worship of Satan more beautiful than the Lord. And I was on terrible drugs, alcohol, to put it short I was the Devil incarnated in flesh. I stopped watching pornography because I wanted more perverse stuff than that was available on the worst porn site and prayed and summoned demons to come and have sex with me and I did have such experiences. And I remember walking on the road making my decision to be an Aghori praying this prayer.
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Dear Lord, you are good. I know I have blown it big time, wasted opportunities to reform year after year in spite of severe warnings ( https://biblehub.com/hebrews/6-7.htm ). I have committed the unpardonable sin and I deserve hell. I am not only corrupt but a corrupter of your children whose thoughts are continually evil!!! ( https://biblehub.com/genesis/6-5.htm ). Please send me to the lake of fire. I ask only one thing. When I am in the torment of fires please let me still be able to say that you are still a good God.
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And in a few minutes a verse which I never understood in the bible flashed into my mind with illumination. ( Well Hebrews was difficult to understand!! )
Hebrews 6:18 that by TWO IMMUTABLE things, in which it is IMPOSSIBLE FOR GOD to lie, we might have STRONG CONSOLATION, who have FLED FOR REFUGE to lay hold of the hope set before us. ( https://biblehub.com/hebrews/6-18.htm )
And God gave me the realization by these words:
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My son, I can’t send you to the lake of fire. I AM BOUND BY MY CHARACTER TO DO SO!!! I bound myself with an oath and can’t change my mind since you fled for refuge from judgement towards me many years back. You may not have confidence that you can keep yourself. You may even not have confidence that even I can keep you. BUT I HAVE CONFIDENCE IN MYSELF THAT I CAN KEEP THE WORST AND BASEST PEOPLE LIKE YOU!!!
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It took a few more years until I experienced the “Exchanged of life in Christ”. But my fear of going to the Lake of fire was gone and Satan’s accusations lost its sting! I couldn’t care less about going to heaven!! All I wanted was God to be glorified and WHETHER IT WAS THROUGH MT SALVATION OR DAMNATION I DID NOT CARE!!!
May God secure in your heart HIS PERFECT LOVE which DRIVES OUT ALL FEAR!!!! ( https://biblehub.com/1_john/4-18.htm )
Some of the material the Lord brought to me to secure me in His Love were:
1. “Pardon for the Greatest Sinners” by “Jonathan Edwards” ( https://www.biblebb.com/files/edwards/je-pardon.htm ). Sadly we have made him famous for another sermon!
2. “A Debtor To Mercy Alone” by “Agustus Toplady” ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enTScf2F6C0 ). Especially the stanzas:
THE TERRORS OF LAW AND OF GOD
WITH ME CAN HAVE NOTHING TO DO
my Savior’s obedience and blood
HIDE ALL my transgressions from view.
Yes, I to the end shall endure,
as sure as the earnest is giv’n;
more happy, but NOT MORE SECURE
THE GLORIFIED SPIRITS IN HEAVEN ( https://hymnary.org/text/a_debtor_to_mercy_alone )
3. “Rock of Ages” by “Augustus Toplady” ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gM7gt_cSxjw ) Especially the Stanzas:
Not the labors of my hands
can fulfill thy law’s demands;
COULD MY ZEAL NO RESPITE KNOW,
COULD MY TEARS FOREVER FLOW,
ALL FOR SIN COULD NOT ATONE,
THOU MUST SAVE, AND THOU ALONE
While I draw this fleeting breath,
when mine eyes shall close in death,
WHEN I soar to worlds unknown,
SEE THEE ON THE JUDGEMENT THRONE
ROCK OF AGES,CLEFT FOR ME
LET ME HIDE MYSELF IN THEE( https://hymnary.org/text/rock_of_ages_cleft_for_me_let_me_hide )
HE ( THE JUDGE ) HIMSELF IS THE PROPITIATION FOR OUR SIN AND NOT ONLY FOR OURS BUT FOR THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD!!!!
WE HAVE A HIGH PRIEST WHO IS – “H A R M L E S S” ( https://biblehub.com/hebrews/7-26.htm )
“H A R M L E S S” – not harmful, describing someone innocent, down to their very intentions (motives), i.e. A PERSON WITHOUT ANY DESIRE TO HURT OR HARM ( https://biblehub.com/greek/172.htm )
4. “Come ye Sinner Poor and Needy” ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGvCm9I4H0A ) Especially these stanzas!!!
Come, ye weary, heavy-laden
Lost and ruined by the fall
IF YOU TARRY TILL YOU ARE BETTER
YOU WILL NEVER COME AT ALL!!!!
Feel Him Prostate in the garden
On the ground your Maker lies
ON THE BLOODY TREE BEHOLD HIM
SINNER WILL THIS NOT SUFFICE????
MY ONLY PRAYER IS THAT GOD WILL OPEN YOUR EYES TO THE THE LOVE HE HAS ALREADY FLOODED IN YOUR HEART AND QUIET YOUR SOUL ( https://biblehub.com/romans/5-5.htm , )
Zephaniah 3:17 The LORD your God is among you; He is mighty to save. He will rejoice over you with gladness; HE WILL QUIET YOU WITH HIS LOVE; He will rejoice over you with singing.” ( https://biblehub.com/zephaniah/3-17.htm )
MANY TIMES WE ARE LIKE HAGAR WHO WAS CRYING JUST BECAUSE SHE WAS BLIND TO THE WELL ( https://biblehub.com/genesis/21-19.htm ) THAT WAS ALREADY WITH HER.
MANY TIMES WE ARE LIKE THE PROPHET’S APPRENTICE PANICKING BECAUSE WE ARE BLIND TO THE ARMY THAT KEEPS US SAFE ( https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Kings+6%3A17-20&version=NLT )
Ephesians 1:17-21 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in your knowledge of Him. I ask that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you may know the hope of His calling, the riches of His glorious inheritance in the saints, and the surpassing greatness of His power to us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of His mighty strength, which He exerted in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly realms, F A R A B O V E above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.
It is 01:45 am here. I was very tired and sat to give a quick reply in 3 or 4 sentences…. I really have no idea how I typed this much… See how He Loves you 🙂
Love, Hugs and Kisses!!!!
Touched me too. The benefits of sound biblical thinking!
I don’t know how long this thread is going to continue but I am riding it for all it’s worth :-). This is a tremendous blessing to me so far.
To quote from Reidhead:
I have talked with people that have no assurance that sins are forgiven. They want to feel safe, before they’re willing to commit themselves to Christ. But I believe that the only ones whom God actually witnesses by His Spirit and are born of Him, are the people, whether they say it or not, that come to Jesus Christ and say something like this, “Lord Jesus, I’m going to obey you, and love you, and serve you, and do what you want me to do, as long as I live even if I go to Hell at the end of the road, simply because YOU ARE WORTHY TO BE LOVED, AND OBEYED, AND SERVED, and I ‘m not trying to make a deal with you!” Do you see the difference? Do you see the difference? Between a Levite serving for ten shekels and a shirt or a Micah building a chapel because God will do you good AND someone that repents for the glory of God.
My problem with this is that the above description is me in a sense. I listen to you relate your own willingness to go to hell and in a way I am envious even though I understand the “hell” that it took to get you there. I don’t want to go to hell. And hell is very real to me. I am pretty sure that it is probably worse than I imagine it to be but I have an existential sense of what it means to be overtaken by “oblivion” and I fear that.
I came to Jesus the first time by truly and utterly realizing his benefits (Psalms 103:2) – and not in the way the prosperity preachers imply. I pretty much understood clearly that the path to “life in abundance” (Joh 10:10) went straight through the cross. I understood that to find the life in him I had to die to this life and I had no problem with that.
I have never been in the pigsty. But I have reaped enough consequences of my sin to have an idea of what the pigsty might feel like. And like the prodigal I just want to be home with my Father. I have not yet heard my Father call for the fatted calf and the ring for my finger and the best robe but I fell in love with Jesus when my eyes were opened to His goodness. He truly became the pearl that I was willing to sell anything else to obtain. I met him as a someone who always speak the truth in love. Whose heart breaks over the desolation of Jerusalem and the condemnation of the pharasees. Who reaches out to the moral rejects and the oppressed and who heals unconditionally to all who come to him for help. Who elevates women and slaves and prayed for the forgiveness of the people who tortured him to death. He is the most remarkable man that I have ever met and if he gives me the strength I am willing to die for him but I can’t bear the thought of spending eternity without him and yes I am bargaining with him but the difference is that I have nothing to bargain with. I am just pleading for His grace. When I start talking about how remarkable He is I quickly find that I cannot stop. The list of his benefits goes on and on and whole books can be written about them. But the most important benefit is just gazing upon his loveliness and enquiring in his .temple. It is truly better to spend one day in his courts than a thousand elsewhere.
My version of “your prayer” sounded something like this (there was not desire to glorify him and every desire for “eternal self preservation”):
Lord I am not in this for any glory. I don’t want to be rich, I don’t want to be famous and I don’t need to be comfortable. I don’t even need to be protected from suffering. I will be perfectly content to be a “straatveer” (an Afrikaans word implying a municipal worker cleaning the streets that was used in my childhood days as a reference to the lowest possible form of employment) in heaven but I beg you not to pass me over because I cannot bear the thought of that happening. I recognize that I am lost and I so desperately want to be found because I have tasted enough to convince me that there is nothing more precious than being where you are Lord Jesus. To be where you are is all that I ever want. Just come and share a mug of coffee with me and I will be content. And I will do my best to love you back and be the son that I believe you want me to be.
I think it amazing that there is another level where the glory of God is so important to a person that they will be content to go to hell so long as they may serve. I am too weak. And “I had a glimpse of that kingdom that He suffered so as to inherit” and I tell you it is such a marvelous place that I urge everyone to strive as hard as they can to obtain it. A place where love truly reigns. Where every single person is immediately willing to lay down his life for his/her neighbor in a moments notice. Where there is not distinction between persons and no respecting of any such person. Where the greatest become the servants and consider it a reward. Where Jesus is the lamp. Where the earth is filled with the knowledge of the Lord. Where the tree of life flows with medicine for every ailment and every tear is dried and everyone is perfectly comforted. How can I turn my back on such a marvelous promise. Why would I not be immediately willing to sacrifice everything to obtain this precious, precious pearl.
Well, because I’m a selfish coward who took his eyes of Jesus and in a time of great weakness wanted the passive assurance more than the responsibility of faith – or something like that.
Because I ended up listening to the voices that told me otherwise and embraced my anger and bitterness and held on to resentment and unforgiveness and ended up heardening my heart.
And also because I basically stepped in every single trap that was laid in front of me.
This is round 3 for me 🙂
I am just so greatful to “still be here”.
Regards
Dear Marinus,
You really don’t need to make much of my reactions such as “willingness to go to hell” and so on 🙂 That may be just my personality… I was a satanist to start with… From Nominal Christian to Atheist to Communist to Satanist…. So you know I am of an extreme character/temperament and that very thing is one of my struggles… I am attracted to a radical voice by nature and do make radical statements with ease…. “Radical is my Norm”…. And that creates its own problems…. Soul tantrums which I feel are unnecessary drama but come naturally to me during times of trials….
What we need to focus is on WHAT GOD IS DOING in our lives… our individual reactions may be very different… I wonder if Daniel would have broken the Tablets of stone in grief and anger like Moses in the same situation… I tried to be like Daniel after listening to “Discipline Of A Godly Man by Ravi Zacharias” ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKwVDW-sEOQ ) very early in my spiritual life and found out to my utter disappointment and frustration that I am not like Daniel… I got a rude awakening that I am like Manasseh…. And one of the most comforting things to me in the scripture during severe trials are these verses put together….
2 Kings 21:7 Manasseh EVEN TOOK the carved ASERAH pole HE HAD MADE and SET IT UP IN THE TEMPLE, of which the LORD had said to David and his son Solomon, “In this temple and in Jerusalem, which I have chosen out of all the tribes of Israel, I will establish My Name forever.
2 Chronicles 33:14 After this, Manasseh rebuilt the outer wall of the City of David from west of Gihon in the valley to the entrance of the Fish Gate, and he brought it around the hill of Ophel and HEIGHTENED IT CONSIDERABLY. He also stationed military commanders in all the fortified cities of Judah. 15 He removed the foreign gods and the idol from the house of the LORD, along with all the altars he had built on the temple mount and in Jerusalem, and he dumped them outside the city. Then he restored the altar of the LORD and sacrificed peace offerings and thank offerings on it, and he told Judah to serve the LORD, the God of Israel.
And I often read this during the Lord’s terrible doings with me to have comfort…
Jeremiah 31:18 I have heard Ephraim grieving, ‘You have disciplined me, and I was disciplined, like an UNTRAINED calf; bring me back that I may be restored, for you are the LORD my God. ( NKJV )
Jeremiah 31:18 I have heard the sound of Ephraim lamenting, and saying, Thou hast chastened me, and I was chastened; I as a calf was NOT WILLINGLY TAUGHT: turn thou me, and I shall turn; for thou art the Lord my God. ( BST )
Jeremiah 31:18 The people of Israel moan and say to me, “WE WERE LIKE WILD BULLS, BUT YOU, LORD, BROKE US, AND WE LEARNED TO OBEY. You are our God–please let us come home. ( CEV )
( https://biblehub.com/jeremiah/31-18.htm )
As for you, the Lord has done ( is doing ) the same dealings as he has done in me AND EVERY OTHER ONE HE ACCEPTS AS SONS ( https://biblehub.com/hebrews/12-8.htm ). It is just that you responded in a milder manner due to your temperament saying “Lord I am not in this for any glory. I don’t want to be rich, I don’t want to be famous and I don’t need to be comfortable. I don’t even need to be protected from suffering. …………………”
The types/ways of reactions is not the issue… God’s work of removing the principle of “SELFWARDNESS” is the issue… So again let me repeat you should not take my reaction as a standard for anything like a “deeper level of glory” etc…. LOL! 🙂
We all have elements of selfishness when we come to the Lord…. It is only after His dealings that we get rid of it…. And even after we get rid of it, with grand statements like I made, we will still be infected with it if we don’t abide/remain IN HIM proving that “WITHOUT Jesus we can do NOTHING” ( https://biblehub.com/john/15-5.htm ). We never get anything as our own but only Christ as our own and all other things are received only IN Christ as His Spirit lives through us as we ABIDE/REMAIN/REST in Him like a branch in the True Vine( https://biblehub.com/bsb/john/15.htm , https://biblehub.com/hebrews/4-10.htm )
2 Corinthians 1:20 For all the promises of God IN HIM are Yes, and IN HIM Amen, to the glory of God through us.
“Unselfishness” is no human quality… It is part of Divine Nature… There is no creature capable of being unselfish…. HENCE There is NO point looking to yourself to produce it…. Jesus shares HIS UNSELFISHNESS with us by sharing His Divine Nature in a rather mysterious way ( https://biblehub.com/colossians/1-27.htm ) with us as we abide in Him by faith…..
Here this paragraph from TAS was a great eye-opener for me… 🙂
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THE IMPOSSIBILITY OF REACHING GOD’S STANDARD OURSELVES
Then, secondly, the Holy Spirit brings us face to face with the utter impossibility of our ever being that of ourselves. You see, God has set up a standard, God has presented His model, God has given us His object for our conformity and the next thing we come up against is the UTTER IMPOSSIBILITY of being that. Yes, of ourselves it cannot be. Have you not learned that lesson of despair yet? Is it necessary for the Holy Spirit to make you despair again? WHY NOT HAVE ONE GOOD DESPAIR AND GET IT ALL OVER? WHY DESPAIR EVERY FEW DAYS? ONLY BECAUSE YOU ARE STILL HUNTING ROUND FOR SOMETHING SOMEWHERE, SOME RAG OF GOODNESS IN YOURSELF THAT YOU CAN PRESENT TO GOD THAT WILL PLEASE HIM, SATISFY HIM AND ANSWER TO HIS REQUIREMENTS. YOU WILL NEVER FIND IT!!! Settle it that “all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags”. Our righteousness, all that trying to be so righteous, the Lord says of it all, “Filthy rags!” Let us settle this once for all. If you are looking ahead of what I am saying, you will see what it is leading to. It is leading to the most glorious position. It is leading to that glorious issue mentioned by the Lord Jesus in this way, in those days before things became inward: “Learn of me . . . and ye shall find rest unto your souls.” That is the end. But we shall never find rest unto our souls until we have first of all learned the utter difference between Christ and ourselves, and then the UTTER IMPOSSIBILITY of our ever being like Him by anything that we can FIND in ourselves, PRODUCE or DO. It is not in us, in ourselves, in that way. So we had better despair our last despair with regard to ourselves. Those two things are basic.
Excerpt from: https://www.austin-sparks.net/english/books/001033.html
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This looking around for some goodness in yourself, and then getting frustrated and calling yourself a “selfish coward” and all the other drama our soul will cook up ( I was much worse when it comes to these ) are all WEIGHTS in our Christian life…. Hence the exhortation..
Hebrews 12:1,2 Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also LAY ASIDE EVERY WEIGHT, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, FIXING our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
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Strength of Self-Condemnation is NOT the secret of humility
— Andrew Murray ( https://www.worldinvisible.com/library/murray/5f00.0565/5f00.0565.c.htm )
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We DIED! ( https://biblehub.com/2_corinthians/5-14.htm )
WE HAVE NO BUSINESS IN LOOKING INTO OURSELVES!!!! — WHO CARES ABOUT DIGGING STINKING GRAVES AND REFORMING BURIED DEAD MEN’S BONES????? ( https://biblehub.com/romans/6-4.htm ) Yes we are led into many nuttiness by the accuser!
ANOTHER ONE NOW LIVES IN US — CHRIST HIMSELF ( https://biblehub.com/2_corinthians/13-5.htm )
WE LOOK INTENTLY AT THE NATURE OF THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST IN US WHICH IS THE LAW OF LIBERTY THAT PAUL ( https://biblehub.com/romans/8-1.htm ) & JAMES ( https://biblehub.com/james/1-25.htm ) SPEAK ABOUT. WHEN WE SEE IT BY ILLUMINATION/ENLIGHTENMENT/REVELATION ( maybe just one aspect of Divine Nature at time https://biblehub.com/ephesians/1-18.htm ) WE ARE ABLE TO BELIEVE THAT WE POSSESS THAT NATURE ( maybe a particular aspect ) AND THEN WALK IN IT BY FAITH AND EXPERIENCE THE POWER OF CHRIST’S SPIRIT ( https://biblehub.com/ephesians/1-19.htm ) MAKING IT REAL IN OUR DAILY EXPERIENCE!!!
IGNORE YOURSELF! ( https://biblehub.com/psalms/119-37.htm )
ONLY NOTICE CHRIST!!! FIX YOUR EYES ON HIM ( https://biblehub.com/hebrews/12-2.htm )
GOD IS THE POTTER NOT YOU!!! ( https://biblehub.com/jeremiah/18-6.htm )
HE KNEW WHAT HE WAS CHOOSING WHEN HE CHOSE YOU!!
IF HE CHOSE A SELFISH COWARD LIKE YOU, OR A VILE PERSON LIKE ME, IT IS FOR THE GLORY OF HIS GRACE! SO THAT NO FLESH WILL GLORY IN HIS PRESENCE ( https://biblehub.com/kjv/1_corinthians/1-29.htm )
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God’s Choice of Instrument
I have said that with this man ( JACOB )came the great thought of God concerning His house, the house of God – with this man! And therein I find one of the greatest comforts and encouragements that can ever come to a man. How often it has been that God has chosen – DELIBERATELY CHOSEN – a man, a person, an instrument for a purpose which in itself, or who in himself, is naturally the most UTTER CONTRADICTION of that purpose; that in such a one God should demonstrate that His purpose is not that, it is other than that, altogether different from that. And so you find again and again that instruments used of God are, in the thing upon which they are engaged, contradicting themselves all the time and having to say, ‘I am not made this way, you know; this is not how I am constituted. I would never be in this and after that if it were left with me. I am only in this by the grace of God. I am only in this by the transforming power of God; I am not like this naturally. No, I am other naturally.’
Servants of God have had to say that to God Himself more than once. Moses, called to go and speak, to go before Pharaoh and make a speech, said, ‘No, you have chosen the wrong man; I cannot speak, I am not eloquent’, and when he did eventually go, he was doing something for which he had no natural qualification.
Excerpt from: https://www.austin-sparks.net/english/books/002849.html
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May God save you from a vision of your “independent/helpless/pathetic self” and give you a vision of your NEW SELF whom He has ALREADY CREATED IN YOU ACCORDING TO GOD IN TRUE RIGHTEOUSNESS AND TRUE HOLINESS so that you can walk like christ on this earth…
1 John 4:17 By this is love perfected with us, so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because AS HE IS SO ARE WE in THIS world.
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Come, ye weary, heavy-laden
Lost and ruined by the fall
IF YOU TARRY UNTIL YOU ARE BETTER
YOU WILL NEVER COME AT ALL!!! 🙂
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Much Love & Prayers 🙂
Thank you, Siju. This touched me deeply.
Thank you for the kind encouragement 🙂
Excellent advice, imho. Paris Reidhead’s diagnosis and comment spot on! Our society (and the Western Church) is so individualistic and ego-centric, we have to resist it all the time. It’s about GOD and his greater purpose in Christ for all the earth. Here I can also recommend N.T. Wright’s writings, the ‘Big Picture.’ Over-introspection is a sure killer, I wrestled with it as a new believer in early adulthood. Robert Murray M’Cheyne said, ‘For every one look at sin we need to take ten looks at Christ.’
We need to lift up our eyes and heads every day, I include MYSELF! Especially as we grow older! Ha…ha…ha!
So true, Errol. So true.
Thank you Eroll for recommending N T Wright. I had heard about him but never read him. Recently someone asked me about something he said about “penal substitution” but I could not give a proper answer because I didn’t know the details… 🙂
As with any other author, I guess we eat the fish and spit out the bones. Wright is an Anglican, so I don’t go with everything he believes… however he has focused on Christ and his resurrection in a refreshing way, emphasizing the HOPE that the Gospel brings. He questions penal substitution (Calvin, et al) as the only view of the atonement and prefers the redemption/ransom theory of atonement, which I also favour having researched it many years ago. Luther also took the latter position, as did Gustav Aulen in his book, ‘Christus Victor.’
Warm greetings.
I really don’t know what the issue is… have not studied what “penal substitution” is… hence I could not give a proper reply to those who asked me about it… 🙂 hope one day I will get to know what “penal substitution” and the other fancy thing Tobie mentioned once in his blogs like “supralapsperianism” or something… I had been to a Christian store today to get a few good books for my daughter and found a book called Systematic Theology by Wane Grudem I just opened it and got scared… I don’t know if it is the content or the color of the page or the font type or the size or everything together that shocked me… but I closed it as quickly as I could and went exploring other sections…. lol! 🙂
Thanks for your patience with us, Tobie!
Errol, I am loving every minute of this conversation. A few weeks ago I joined in a zoom discussion with Wayne Jacobsen and about 20-25 participants, which was a real blessing but also an eye-opener as to how easy it is to enjoy fellowship and good conversation across continents. So I am tempted to throw an invitation out there for all of us to set up a date – maybe a Sunday evening at 18h00 or 19h00 – and have some zoom fellowship. Let me know what you guys think. If it interferes with other commitments, we can alter the day/time. And I also have a friend or two that I know will happily indulge in such a conversation, and maybe the same on your side and everyone’s above.
The only obstacle for me personally would be on the technical side, lol! Will chat to Justin to help his old man out if necessary.
It would be the way to go, I guess, especially with lock-down restrictions, travel costs, etc.
Blessings to you all.
Will mention the details to those interested and get back to you, Tobie.
I am ready, please tell me the time zone also with time… 🙂 Last Sunday from 11:30 PM IST ( our time zone ) I was in a zoom meeting with around 15-20 people from Kent USA. I had met one of them in https://www.facebook.com/pg/AustinSparks.Net/groups/?ref=page_internal some time back but I had quit Facebook completely during the US election scuffle but he faithfully followed me up to send me the promised house church talks by Austin Sparks Son-in-Law Richard Akeroyd by email… I just collected them at https://archive.org/details/RichardAckeroydSermons also so that others can get the hassle free, either download or stream directly… I will put more of them as I am provided… I am collecting Norman Grubbs talks also as much as I can find here https://archive.org/details/NormanPGrubbSermons People can download as well as stream 🙂 People who find Austin Sparks sermons though to understand find Akeroyd’s sermons very easy…
The Kent Zoom meeting was the first one I have ever attended that didn’t have a leader… People just came and told how the Lord led them that week for two hours or so and took a break and came back to discuss things they learned from the scripture… Anybody could talk anytime…. I was meeting them for the first time in my life but it felt like family 🙂
I am ready to meet… I sat there listening and talking from Sunday 11:30 PM IST to Monday 3:00 AM IST without losing interest or wanting to sleep… 🙂
Having discussed the issue with some of our folk, I can say that we’ll be happy to co-operate with you on this little project, so please go ahead when opportune.
I thought I was going to get a zoom link in email today 🙂
Hi guys – thanks for the feedback. I will see if I can set it up for next Sunday. Will keep you posted. Siju – for some reason I need to approve your comments before they appear. I have no idea why. So I don’t see them until I open my mail. I only read your previous comment now, so I did not know that you’ve responded. Apologies. Any idea how to fix it on WordPress? Should be simple, I would imagine.
Lol! I am not a WordPress expert but found this: https://mettro.com.au/articles/disabling-comment-moderation
Sorry for disappearing Siju
As mentioned I am currently undergoing investigations to see if I have “long covid” or something else. I saw the physician yesterday.
“ANOTHER ONE NOW LIVES IN US — CHRIST HIMSELF ” – we were in the car yesterday on our way home and as I was reading these words to Carla I actually felt a “band” tighten around my head trying to “squeeze this out of me”. Even though I will never build a theology on “physical sensations” they happen so rarely to me that when they do I take note.
So I stopped and went back and read the whole passage again. I am still chewing even though – if you asked me a month ago about the need to acknowledge Christs presence in me I would have dismissed it as “Gospel 101”.
And lo and behold the chances to despair started rolling in 🙂 . In a weird way I am having a lot of fun “not despairing” while trying “not to despair” about the fact that I will probably embrace sin on some fundamental and will have to be disciplined only to then realize that the mere fact that I am anticipating these things constitutes a level of self-awareness that I should not be having in the first place 🙂 .
It is what it is but I feel things that I haven’t felt in a long time and when it is good it is really good.
We even have a “games night” set up in my house for Friday night. The atmosphere is lighter than it was all 2020. I am looking up though as much as I can.
Blessings
Marinus
Dear Marinus,
Don’t worry too much about physical sensations. 🙂
Much of the time it is a distraction from Christ and the Truth that sets you free.
A mere psychological trick to make you overestimate the power of dark forces in your life. It happens when people are about to be freed by the truth.
Much the same trick as the sight of giants acted to paralyze Israelites from entering God’s rest in the time of Joshua and Caleb.
Our attitude to all these is as below 🙂
Jeremiah 10:5 Like scarecrows in a cucumber field, their idols cannot speak. They must be carried because they cannot walk. Do not fear them, for they can do no harm, and neither can they do any good.”
Numbers 14:9 Only do not rebel against the LORD, and do not be afraid of the people of the land, for they will be like bread for us. Their protection has been removed, and the LORD is with us. Do not be afraid of them!”
Colossians 2:14-15 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him.
Don’t even worry if after the physical sensations some strange beings start visiting you with weird experiences. All these are mere psychological tricks…
I had two visitors at night in my bedroom early in the morning today. I couldn’t care less. They tried to do exactly the same thing to me as you mentioned.
“ a “band” tighten around my head trying to “squeeze “
It happened for quite some time 🙂
I slept very late yesterday night at 4pm after finishing my replies and messages for others. So this experience happened to me somewhere after 4 am today morning IST. I wonder if it coincides with your timing Lol!
Anyway take it with a laugh and scoff as I took it LOL!!! 🙂
We are seated WITH HIM!!!
Psalm 2:4 The One enthroned in heaven laughs; the Lord scoffs at them.
Luke 6:40 A disciple is NOT ABOVE his teacher, but everyone who is FULLY TRAINED WILL BE like his teacher.
Take this as a training to learn to laugh and scoff with the ONE with whom you are seated….. FAAAAAR ABOVE. Read ephesians 1 & 2 chapters 🙂 Therein is the truth.
If you give attention to these experiences then these kinds of experiences are going to increase both in number and intensity. That is where believers in certain denominations are led astray from simple devotion to christ to nonsense called “spiritual warfare” which really is like “boxer beating the air”
2 Corinthians 11:3 But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ.
1 Corinthians 9:26 Therefore I do not run like someone running aimlessly; I do not fight like a boxer beating the air.
The greatest blow is given to the enemy when you just ignore him!!!!
Don’t fall for the cunning!
We ignore with an attitude of laughter and scoffing!!
Much Love!!!!! 🙂 🙂 🙂
Thanks Siju!
‘Feelings come and feelings go,
And feelings are deceiving;
My warrant is the Word of God –
Naught else is worth believing.
Though all my heart should feel condemned
For want of some sweet token,
There is One greater than my heart
Whose Word cannot be broken.
I’ll trust in God’s unchanging Word
‘Til soul and body sever,
For, though all things shall pass away
His word shall stand forever!’
(Martin Luther).
I think the biggest temptation is to think that our personal trials are unique, when actually they are common to many, as the Scriptures clarify.
Let’s all take courage in these things, brothers and sisters in Christ.
Thank you Errol 🙂
I came back to write about the same thing.
2 Peter 1:19 19 And so we have been given the prophetic word—the written message of the prophets, made more reliable and fully validated by the confirming voice of God on the Mount of Transfiguration. And YOU WILL CONTINUE TO DO WELL IF YOU STAY FOCUSED ON IT. For this PROPHETIC MESSAGE IS LIKE A PIERCING LIGHT SHINING IN A GLOOMY PLACE UNTIL THE DAWNING OF A NEW DAY, when the Morning Star rises in your hearts.
In our times this PROPHETIC MESSAGE includes the writings of the Apostles ( New Testament ) also.
We are told to “Walk AS Children of Light”
Ephesians 5:8 For YOU WERE once darkness, but now YOU ARE light in the Lord. WALK AS children of light,
Walking needs two legs. Two support systems.
When it comes to the Word of God there is the
1.. Written Word of God ( Scripture https://biblehub.com/2_timothy/3-16.htm )
2.. Living Word of God ( Jesus https://biblehub.com/john/1-1.htm )
Neglecting any one of these will end up in a double minded lame walk unstable in ALL our ways . ( https://biblehub.com/hebrews/12-13.htm , https://biblehub.com/james/1-8.htm )
The beauty of the WRITTEN WORD is that there is NO UNCERTAINTY about it!
It sweeps aside all the arguments that are provided to us through sensory illusions, delusions & hallucinations in a single stroke and demolishes strongholds that already exist in the mind through the acceptance of imaginations produced by these sensory illusions, delusions & hallucinations we have previously experienced.
2 Corinthians 10:4-5 ( https://www.bible.com/bible/59/2CO.10.4-5.ESV )
For the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh but have DIVINE POWER TO DESTROY STRONGHOLDS. We DESTROY ARGUMENTS and EVERY LOFTY OPINION RAISED AGAINST THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOD, and take every thought captive to obey Christ.
Romans 8:33 ( https://www.bible.com/bible/1849/ROM.8.33-34.TPT )
33 Who then would dare to accuse those whom God has chosen in love to be his? God himself is the judge who has issued his final verdict over them—“Not guilty!” 34 Who then is left to condemn us? Certainly not Jesus, the Anointed One! For he gave his life for us, and even more than that, he has conquered death and is now risen, exalted, and enthroned by God at his right hand. So how could he possibly condemn us since he is continually praying for our triumph?[b]( TPT )
33 Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 WHO IS HE WHO CONDEMNS? IT IS CHRIST WHO DIED, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, WHO ALSO MAKES INTERCESSION FOR US. ( NKJV )
I have often wondered how the devil showed Jesus ALL THE KINGDOMS OF THE WORLD AND THEIR GLORY. Some sensory trick?
Matthew 4:8-11 ( https://www.bible.com/bible/59/MAT.4.8-11.ESV )
Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. And he said to him, “All these I will give you, if you will fall down and worship me.” Then Jesus said to him, “Be gone, Satan! For IT IS WRITTEN, “‘You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve.’” Then the devil left him, and behold, angels came and were ministering to him.
Whatever be the trick, sensory or otherwise, the pioneer and perfecter of our faith ( https://biblehub.com/hebrews/12-2.htm ) swept every illusion from the devil aside with a single stroke of IT IS WRITTEN!!!!
Whatever be the sensory illusion ( I have had plenty in more than two decades of walking with the Lord, almost daily during some periods for many years, and nowadays only once is a month or so ) everything is swept aside with this one scripture.
IT IS WRITTEN!!! GREATER IS THE ONE WHO INDWELLS YOU!!! than the one who indwells the world.
And this is not written to a mature christian but to LITTLE CHILDREN IN CHRIST!
1 John 4:4 You, little children, are from God and HAVE OVERCOME them, because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world.
When the Lord said…
John 16:33 I have told you these things so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take courage; I HAVE OVERCOME the world!”
….to His disciples, He was looking forward to that fact THAT EVERY ONE OF THOSE DISCIPLES WILL DUE TO THE PRESSURE FROM THE WORLD WILL DENY AND DESERT HIM AND BE IN TRIBULATION because of the words He had spoken earlier to them “whoever shall deny Me before men, I also will deny him before My Father in the heavens.” ( https://biblehub.com/matthew/10-33.htm ).
But after they learned their impotence by denying their Lord ( we are in the same school so don’t worry the syllabus is the same LOL! ), the same one, who HAD OVERCOME both the world and the one who indwells the world, was going to COME INSIDE the timid cowards and make them ones who HAVE OVERCOME the world. We know the difference when we move from the book of John to the book of Acts!
Dear Marinus,
I have been led to pray since I last wrote that there will be a “DEMONSTRATION of the SPIRIT and of POWER” ( https://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/2-4.htm ) in your life by the HOLY SPIRIT WHO INDWELLS YOU so that the principalities and powers in the heavenly places are made known the manifold ( rich variety of ) wisdom of God ( https://biblehub.com/ephesians/3-10.htm ) by seeing your BOLDNESS & CONFIDENCE ( https://biblehub.com/ephesians/3-12.htm ) through the STRENGTH & POWER given to you through HIS SPIRIT IN YOUR INNER MAN ( https://biblehub.com/ephesians/3-16.htm ) by which YOU BOLDLY ENTER THE HOLY OF HOLIES HAVING CONFIDENCE IN THE REMISSION OF YOUR SINS BY THE BLOOD OF JESUS AND TAKE YOUR SEAT AT THE THRONE WITH CHRIST AS YOU ARE IN HIM ( https://biblehub.com/ephesians/2-6.htm )
This has NOTHING to do with you but EVERYTHING to do with the ONE WHO PURCHASED you!!!!
1 Peter 1:18 ( https://www.bible.com/bible/1849/1PE.1.18-21.TPT )
For you know that your lives wereRANSOMED ONCE AND FOR ALL from the empty and futile way of life handed down from generation to generation. It was not a ransom payment of silver and gold, which eventually perishes, but the PRECIOUS BLOOD OF CHRIST—who like a spotless, unblemished lamb was sacrificed for us. This was part of God’s plan, for he was chosen and destined for this before the foundation of the earth was laid, but he has been MADE MANIFEST in these last days FOR YOU. It is THROUGH HIM THAT YOU NOW BELIEVE in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, SO THAT YOU WOULD FASTEN YOUR FAITH AND HOPE IN GOD alone.
2 Timothy 1:7 For God has NOT GIVEN us a spirit of TIMIDITY, BUT of POWER and love and sound mind.
We see this boldness and power in the life of Samson due to the MIGHT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT!!!
Judges 14:5-8 NKJV ( https://www.bible.com/bible/114/JDG.14.5-9.NKJV )
So Samson went down to Timnah with his father and mother, and came to the vineyards of Timnah. Now TO HIS SURPRISE, a young lion came roaring against him. And the SPIRIT OF THE LORD CAME MIGHTILY UPON HIM, AND HE TORE THE LION APART AS ONE WOULD HAVE TORN APART A YOUNG GOAT, THOUGH HE HAD NOTHING IN HIS HAND. But he did not tell his father or his mother what he had done. Then he went down and talked with the woman; and she pleased Samson well. After some time, when he returned to get her, he turned aside to see the carcass of the lion. And BEHOLD, A SWARM OF BEES AND HONEY WERE IN THE CARCASS OF THE LION. HE TOOK SOME OF IT IN HIS HANDS AND WENT ALONG, EATING. When he came to his father and mother, he gave some to them, and they also ate. But he did not tell them that he had taken the honey out of the carcass of the lion.
And his testimony afterward was:
Judges 14:14 “OUT OF THE EATER CAME SOMETHING TO EAT, and OUT OF THE STRONG CAME SOMETHING SWEET.”
May God grant you to be STRENGTHENED WITH ALL POWER ACCORDING TO HIS GLORIOUS MIGHT IN THE INNER MAN ( https://biblehub.com/colossians/1-11.htm, https://biblehub.com/ephesians/3-16.htm ) so that you MAY BOLDLY TEAR UP ANY LION THAT COMES AGAINST YOU TO EXPERIENCE SWEETNESS FROM THE CARCASS!!
Now this is not just for young men but also for babes and children by the virtue of the ONE THAT INDWELLS THEM!!
Psalm 8:2 OUT OF THE MOUTH OF BABES AND SUCKLINGS ( NURSING INFANTS ) YOU HAVE ORDAINED STRENGTH, Because of Your enemies, THAT YOU MAY SILENCE THE ENEMY AND THE AVENGER.
We see a glimpse of that from the life of the shepherd boy David.
1 Samuel 17:34-35 ESV ( https://www.bible.com/bible/59/1SA.17.34-35.NKJV )
But David said to Saul, “Your servant used to keep sheep for his father. And WHEN THERE CAME A LION, OR A BEAR, and took a lamb from the flock, I WENT AFTER HIM AND STRUCK HIM AND DELIVERED it out of his mouth. And IF HE AROSE AGAINST ME, I CAUGHT HIM BY HIS BEARD AND STRUCK HIM AND KILLED HIM.
Nothing fantastic written about the SPIRIT coming MIGHTILY on David to do that as in the case of Samson. But we know from David’s other writings.
Psalm 28:7 The LORD is my STRENGTH and my SHIELD!!!
I am not a very bold person by nature but I am encouraged often by the verse…
Psalm 73:26 My FLESH AND MY HEART may FAIL, BUT GOD IS THE STRENGTH OF MY HEART and my portion forever.
May GOD make you BOLD by HIS SPIRIT IN YOU
Love 🙂 🙂 🙂
Thanks Siju
Your prayer is making a profound difference. If you think it not to bold I would ask a prayerful whisper towards my son as well.
The boy is suitably angry at his father. To top it all of he has a very mild form of Asperger syndrome that went undiagnosed for the first 12 years of his life.
I am making my way back towards him.
This has been one of the most liberating experiences I had in a long time. Thank you very much.
Regards
Wonderful, Marinus.
Dear Marinus,
Will pray for your Son and Wife 🙂
We are always in the benefit of ALL PRAYER FOR ALL THE SAINTS ( https://biblehub.com/ephesians/6-18.htm ) which the Holy Spirit prayers through His vessels even those we have not met or know.
When God takes up our salvation into His own Almighty hands His Omniscience covers for all deficiencies and situations!
I can understand your son, having been through crazy times myself.
As for Aspergers, I would encourage you to read “Common Sense Not Needed by Corrie Ten Boom” https://womenofchristianity.com/common-sense-not-needed-by-corrie-ten-boom/
And for all your troubles:
Hebrews 7:24-25 But because Jesus lives forever, He has a permanent priesthood. Consequently, he is able to SAVE to the UTTERMOST those who draw near to God through him, since he ALWAYS lives to MAKE INTERCESSION for them.
Save to the Uttermost = Save completely/entirely/perfectly = Save through ALL TIME = Save at ALL times )
https://biblehub.com/greek/3838.htm
https://biblehub.com/hebrews/7-25.htm
IT WILL BE MADE KNOWN TO THE PRINCIPALITIES AND POWERS THAT “JESUS CHRIST IS NO PARTIAL SAVIOR!!!” THROUGH YOUR LIFE TO THE GLORY OF GOD!
Love 🙂
Thanks again for a great discussion, everyone. I certainly hope it is going to continue for some time. I know of people who are not participating but following the conversation intently, so you are being a blessing to others as well.
Siju and I had a zoom session last night, which lasted quite a while and really edified me. We spoke of doing so again coming Sunday, and opening it up to everyone above, as well as anyone else who may want to join in. Siju mentioned that there are brothers and sisters in his part of the world who would like to do so, and I know of some in Bloemfontein. I am sure Errol and Marinus may as well. We are looking at doing so 18h00 South African time. Please let us know if this would work for you and if you would be able to join. We’ll host it between Siju and I, and will send the links via email or WhatsApp if you prefer.
It goes without saying that the invitation is open to all who have been following the conversation and would like to contribute, ask questions or simply attend as a fly on the wall.
Please also let us know about the daylight savings trick etc if any 🙂 Also, it seems there are two Time Zones in South Africa https://www.timeanddate.com/time/zone/south-africa Which one is yours?
Thanks Tobie. As a matter of interest, which part of the world are you from, Siju?
Cochin, Kerala, India – https://goo.gl/maps/KqtLHf5mcDQ4gJEK6 is the bus stop near my house in the village. The Cochin International Airport https://cial.aero/ is very near us. So it is very easy to reach us 🙂
I’ll make sure that Grahamstown’s time zone corresponds with the rest of South Africa. I assume you have our e-mail address Tobie?
Lost loads of data a while ago, so I will appreciate it if you can forward it to bigpicture@mweb.co.za
Erroll Mulder’s thankful@lantic.net
I have hit a stumbling block. Perhaps it can be discussed on Sunday. I have decided to push through this issue come what may – so I picked up “the normal Christian life” for the umpteenth time and I am battling through it reading one page forward – three pages back :-). It is worth noting that I have not been able to finish this book for the last 15 years even though I am no slouch when it comes to reading. This time it looks like I might succeed – I’m on page 215.
My sense is that Romans 8:9 seems to contradict 1 Corinthians 3:3.
Watchman Nee seems to think that the condemnation referred to in Romans 8:10 is self condemnation and not condemnation from God because that condemnation has been dealt with by the blood of Jesus (Rom 5:9). I don’t see how he can make that assertion. It seems to me that the death spoken of in Romans 8 is very much a spiritual death and not a merely a physical one.
I really wrestle with the fact that the Bible seems to say that if we don’t succeed in mortifying our carnal deeds in the flesh then we will be lost. Nothing stirs up my flesh like this. I am simply incapable of resting in Him when I know that if I fail it will be the end of me. It is like placing the carrot of salvation right in front of my nose and plucking it away at the last second.
The fact of the matter is that I can’t even purify my own thoughts. And there is a part of me that, in certain contexts, would happily embrace sin if I thought I could get away with it. Not always but I have my moments.
Hi Marinus – this is from Siju. His comment failed to register, so he mailed it directly to me.
Dear Marinus,
I got up to write a prayer request to all I know but then I find this response from you.
So I thought I would reply to this first and then write the prayer request at the end! LOL! 🙂
First of all about your anxiety”
“there is a part of me that, in certain contexts, would happily embrace sin if I thought I could get away with it. Not always but I have my moments.”
Relax we all have that part!
Scripture calls it the FLESH.
A simple way to understand the “flesh” is to consider yourself in a state where the Life of Christ does not flow through you to SUPERNATURALLY to “DIRECT & CONTROL” ( GOVERN ) you.
And hence the simple command in John 15 “ABIDE IN ME”.
IT ( FLESH ) IS NOT TO BE FEARED BUT ONLY UNDERSTOOD AND DEALT WITH APPROPRIATELY!!!
Your only escape from that part ( flesh ) of you is to LEARN HOW TO ABIDE IN CHRIST.
The FLESH IS A GREAT ASSET ( once we see clearly from a spiritual standpoint, otherwise from a natural standpoint one is tempted to think the flesh as a liability – https://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/2-14.htm ) that REGULARLY TEACHES us:
John 15:5 For apart from Me you are able to do NOTHING.
SUCH A FAITHFUL TEACHER!
( God makes ALL THINGS – INCLUDING FLESH & DEVIL – work for our good! – Romans 8:28 – For our training to be like Christ! – Hebrews 12 )
Which means apart from Christ’s Spirit all you can “THINK, SEEK & ACCOMPLISH” is VANITY ( NO-THING/SUBSTANCE ) which is another way to talk about “LIVING IN SIN”.
Isaiah 5:18 Woe to those who draw iniquity with cords of vanity, And sin as if with a cart rope;
This part ( FLESH ) is ONLY DEALT PROPERLY BY THE HOLY SPIRIT IN YOU as you live by Living Faith and not by your own self efforts to kill/mortify/conquer/subdue it.
Romans 8:13 if BY THE SPIRIT you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. ( https://biblehub.com/romans/8-13.htm )
Another way of understanding the above vere is:
But IF THE LIFE OF THE SPIRIT puts to death the corrupt ways of the flesh, we then taste his abundant life. ( TPThttps://www.bible.com/bible/1849/ROM.8.13.TPT )
The stuff that does not profit while dealing with the flesh ( though this is what is advertised in many different forms for as the solution ) is given by the Apostle below:
Colossians 2:20-23 ( New King James Version )
20 Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations— 21 “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,” 22 which all concern things which perish with the using—according to the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of NO VALUE AGAINST THE INDULGENCE OF THE FLESH.
A simple way of understanding the above verses is:
Colossians 2:20-23 ( TPT )
For you were included in the death of Christ and have died with him to the religious system and powers of this world. Don’t retreat back to being bullied by the standards and opinions of religion—for example, their strict requirements, “You can’t associate with that person!” or, “Don’t eat that!” or, “You can’t touch that!” These are the doctrines of men and corrupt customs that are WORTHLESS TO HELP YOU SPIRITUALLY. For though they may appear to possess the promise of wisdom in their submission to God through the deprivation of their physical bodies, it is actually nothing more than empty rules rooted in religious rituals!
SO RELAX!
WE ALL HAVE THAT PART CALLED THE FLESH!
YOU DON”T HAVE ANY EXTRA PARTS IN YOUR HUMANITY/BODY/SOUL THAT THE REST OF US DO NOT HAVE!
YOU ARE NOT “MORE FILTHY” THAN THE REST OF US!
Now your next anxiety!
“The fact of the matter is that I can’t even purify my own thoughts.”
Great! 🙂
There are some thoughts you cannot purify!
So the simple solution given by the apostle is to REJECT IT BY IGNORING.
These thoughts are collectively called “THE MIND OF THE FLESH”.
Romans 8:7 because the MIND OF THE FLESH is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, NOR CAN IT DO SO!
So why waste time and energy trying to purify those thoughts when the Apostle says you cannot? 🙂 Just ignore them! – I know it is hard to do with our own strength but for that the Lord strengthens our INNER MAN by HIS SPIRIT. ( https://biblehub.com/ephesians/3-16.htm , https://biblehub.com/colossians/1-11.htm )
And then you give your attention to the other thoughts collectively called as “THE MIND OF THE SPIRIT”
Romans 8:6 he mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace,
The mind of the Spirit DOES NOT originate from your humanity.
It cannot originate from your humanity!
So now don’t try to produce it and get into the next circus of frustration!
The mind of the Spirit is the same mind ( thoughts & attitude ) that the Holy Spirit SUPERNATURALLY gave Christ as He walked like us on this earth in His Flesh & Blood suit. Even Christ depended on His Father’s Spirit as He walked this earth for having a RIGHT MIND!
John 5:19 So Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, the Son can do nothing by Himself, UNLESS HE SEES THE FATHER DOING IT. For whatever the Father does, the Son also does.
AN EASY WAY TO HAVE THE MIND OF THE SPIRIT IS TO READ THE SCRIPTURE 🙂
So there also you are NOT DIFFERENT, or “MORE FILTHY” than the rest of US!!!
That is why it is said CHRIST IS OUR SANCTIFICATION! Not something that we do!
And because of him you are in CHRIST JESUS, who BECAME TO US wisdom from God, righteousness and SANCTIFICATION/HOLINESS and redemption, ( https://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/1-30.htm )
Now your doubt about Romans 8:9 and 1 Corinthians 3:3 is related.
This is what Romans 8:9 says
Romans 8:9 Now you are not in flesh but in Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you; but if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not of Him.
IN THE FLESH – was your state when you were “JUST FLESH & BLOOD” without the Holy Spirit before you were born again ( born from above https://biblehub.com/john/3-3.htm ). In that state you DID NOT have the mind ( thoughts & attitudes ) provided by the Holy Spirit so you were blind to the things of God and could not see/experience the Kingdom/Rule/Government of God in you! Death & Sin were Runling/Governing you ( https://biblehub.com/romans/5-17.htm , https://biblehub.com/romans/7-17.htm )
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, except anyone be born from above, he is not able to see the kingdom/rule/government of God.”
You did not have the Holy Spirit then, so you could not be Governed by the Holy Spirit!
Sin governed you even though you did not suspect it ( Romans 7 )
Sin was your king/lord – So you were in the Kingdom of darkness ( https://biblehub.com/colossians/1-13.htm )
IN THE SPIRIT – IS YOUR STATE after you are born again! But a new believer who has not learned to WALK BY/ACCORDING TO THE HOLY SPIRIT INSIDE HIM ( believer ) would still be walking in the same way, in many areas, just like he used to before he was born again ( https://biblehub.com/galatians/5-16.htm , https://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/3-1.htm ). Hence the Apostle calls those “BABES IN CHRIST” carnal/fleshy etc.
( When CHRIST COMES IN US BY HIS SPIRIT we become “IN CHRIST” )
To the Corinthians the Apostle said that:
1. They HAD THE HOLY SPIRIT!
2 Corinthians 13:5 Can’t you see for yourselves that Jesus Christ is in you ( https://biblehub.com/2_corinthians/13-5.htm )
2. They WERE ALREADY SANCTIFIED!
1 Corinthians 6:11 And that is what some of you were. But you WERE WASHED, you WERE SANCTIFIED you WERE JUSTIFIED, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and BY THE SPIRIT OF OUR GOD!
Their filth WAS “THE SIN” who DWELT IN THEIR BODY! – AND GOVERNED IT – before they were born again!
Their cleanliness/sanctification/holiness IS “THE HOLY SPIRIT” who NOW DWELLS IN THEIR BODY – And They will come under the Government of the Spirit as they experience the Mystery of Christ ( https://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/2-7.htm ) and the HIDDEN RICHES OF CHRIST”S DIVINE NATURE ( https://biblehub.com/colossians/1-27.htm , https://biblehub.com/colossians/2-3.htm ) in INCREASING DEPTHS ( https://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/2-10.htm ) … Which is another way of saying “LEARNING TO WALK STEADILY”. James tells us that temptations helps us here ( http://bit.ly/3eVVmBg )
I have tried to explain these in simple terms. But there are many ways to explain these. It is quite confusing initial but finally it IS NOT ABOUT BEING ABLE TO FIGURE OUT THE FLAWLESS WAY TO EXPLAIN THESE MYSTERIES BUT TO HUNGER FOR THE EXPERIENCE! And God satisfies the hungry by MAKING REAL the experience.
I got a lot of things figured out doctrinally ONLY AFTER I HAD THE EXPERIENCE!
It was much easier then!
Keep asking your questions!
I have not yet managed to read fully the Norman Christian Life by NEE.
Just read it here and there!
I got NEE’s books too early in my christian walk so I got really confused by the terms, natural man, carnal man, spiritual man, inner man, outer man etc. Man! That was too much to take at that time. LOL! :-)Then God gave me the experience before I could finish reading many good books on it! So I could not read many good books on the subject!!!
Now coming to the original prayer request I was going to send to others for which I got up at midnight… I am just copy pasting below as typing is painful….
=======
Dear All,
I got up now to type this as I was not getting sleep due to severe pain in my neck and hands ( especially arms & knuckle joints – One of the first two in http://bit.ly/3eQMgpv ) for some time. I have had this for quite a few many years now. The Orthopedician I met last was talking in terms of surgery etc. Last time 3 of the drugs I was given were the same ones I used to take during my psychiatric treatment ( painkillers and sleeping pills ) so I chose to endure the pain rather than be in an alternate state of mind with those drugs ( as I don’t enjoy those states of mind now as I did before ). I have been following the advice in Ezekiel 24:17 “Sigh but not aloud” in the times when the pains become unbearable but now it is too too too much as it reduces me from being a man to a cry baby inside with shortness of breath. The lack of proper sleep due to the pain also contributes to the sorrow I guess as I feel like a dam of tears about to burst sometimes. So I wonder if there is someone called an “orthopaediatrician”!!!! I would appreciate your prayers a lot!!! Tomorrow I will be meeting the Orthopedician that took care of Sophi’s hand as he is good. Much of my day has to be spent typing so this pain an added challenge! I cannot refrain from typing as the recipients are also going through severe challenges themselves. I cannot sit or stand or lie down due to the pain! A few days back I got this sermon of Richard Akeroid ( https://ia801407.us.archive.org/32/items/RichardAckeroydSermons/084%20Ezekiel.mp3 ) which is about Ezekiel and Jeremiah which was very encouraging.
Thank you
Love ❤️❤️❤️
Siju
“Father in heaven, we pray regarding Siju’s physical challenges, in the name of our risen and exalted Lord Jesus Christ. May he not feel alone in his struggle with the pain he is presently suffering. Lord you know that very few if any can function effectively without sleep, so we ask in the strong name of Jesus our Lord that you will sovereignly intervene and heal on his behalf. Help him to know that he is labour in the Lord is not in vain. And help us all to be ‘anxious about nothing and to pray about everything, giving thanks’ for all your mercies. We give thanks and pray all in our Saviour’s name and for his sake. Amen.”
Amen
And amen.
Thank you a million! Going to see Orthopedician in a few hours 🙂
I read Siju’s response after posting it. Intently.
It is very true that there are more than one way to explain that which he has explained above. This should not come as a surprise, as he is explaining an experience.
The map is not the territory, as we all know. We are not students of maps; we are pilgrims. Maps are helpful when you are a pilgrim, but they can never replace the experience of the journey. And experiences have a tendency to produce journals, not more maps. These experiences are uniquely distinct, even though they cover the same territory.
It happened to me in the same way, yet completely differently; if that makes sense at all. The sameness had to do with the horror and dread of realising that there was nothing I could possibly do to achieve the spiritual goals I had set for myself. The happiness of being invited onto this fascinating narrow path by none other than Jesus himself soon became a wail of hysteria as I was confronted time and again with the utter impossibility of staying on it. I was like a bumbling drunk in a high-end store filled with fine china and crystal. Everything I touched seemed to end up in shatters, and this continued for 4 nightmarish years.
I agree with Siju. God used the flesh as an instructor! Thank God that He used my flesh to teach me the most important lesson of true spirituality, namely that Adam cannot improve.
This was the lie that seduced Eve and her husband: There is an improvement of yourself that can be attained apart from the life of God; there is a wise discernment that can be possessed and applied to make you more than what you are.
We are still buying it. So much so that we preach a repentance from aiming for the evil to aiming for the good, not realising that it has nothing to do with the good or the evil but with the demonic subtlety of aiming at something other than God.
It was late one evening in the autumn of 1984, in a room in the army barracks at Tempe military base in Bloemfontein, when I lost it. I cried. I shouted. I punched the wall. I railed against the injustice of being robbed of the fulfilment of the dream that had governed my life for years, namely to please God in everything I do. I wanted nothing more than to live like Jesus, and it evaded me with a vengeance.
And then I said it to Him, perhaps more out of spite than anything else: You will not get rid of me. I don’t care if you don’t want me. I will stick around. I am here and I will stay. I will be the blot on your landscape and the disfigured reject of your flock. But I will follow, even if it’s at a distance. If you don’t want to change me, then so be it. Then I’ll just be around exactly as I am.
Maybe a part of me wanted to make my embarrassment his embarrassment, I don’t know – like the family wash-out who arrives at the wedding banquet, drunk and filthy, and introduces himself to gasps of shock and disgust as the brother of the groom.
In that second I gave it up. I could no more. I had burned out. I was finished. I did not know of any soul in the history of the universe who had tried harder to live up to God’s holy command, and I certainly did not know of anyone who had failed more miserably.
I remember throwing myself down on the army bed as an act of resignation. I had given up, given in. I would be the first devil who would quietly follow Jesus, lurking in the shadows, observing from a distance.
Now that I think of it; I did not want to embarrass him. No, I adored him. I did not want to crash his party or shocked all the people dressed in white. I was happy to sit in a tree and observe through a window. I did not deserve to be in there. I was scum, I was legion, and I had finally accepted it. I would never-ever try again to be like those on the inside. I belonged to some or other despicable species. But I would not forsake him. I was Sméagol, and that was okay. At least I could tag along
And then something inexplicable happened. As I lay there, the sweetest of breezes began to blow over my soul, like someone had opened a window in a mausoleum of death that had been shut for millennia. I did not understand it. It did not fit the occasion. But I knew in an instant that He was there.
He was there, and he was speaking to me. One simple sentence. “You…cannot…do…it.”
My life changed as a result of those words.
Within a few weeks two books crossed my path that led me into an understanding of the experience I had had that night. Note: First the experience, then the explanation. They were Turn Your Back on the Problem by Malcolm Smith and The Normal Christian Life by Watchman Nee. I spoke about it on the Testimony page of this blog, so I will refrain.
I say it again: It happened to me in the same way, yet completely differently. I cannot canonise my experience, nor can Siju his. Yet there is an unmistakeable generic quality to both. Read the saints (those who are worth reading) and you will see that it happened to all of them. The same thing, yet differently. Hudson Taylor, Watchman Nee, TAS, Norman Grubb, and so on.
They all understood that the path to Christ necessitated a coming to terms with their own utter helplessness to conquer their flesh; that they should cease trying to do so, for the delivery is found in union with God alone; that the advocacy of the ever-present flesh would continue, even after a person has been delivered from it; that such advocacy is mere noise for the one who has lost his/her life and found it in Christ; that the flesh should never be engaged at its own level as though to be conquered or shut up, but ignored into oblivion while you carry on with the wonderful business of exploring the depths of Jesus Christ and your oneness with him.
Endnote: Perhaps the single biggest error of a certain type of Protestant theology is the suspicion that has been cast on the term experience and everything associated with it. The subjectivity associated with experience is presented as the prime evidence that one opens oneself up for every conceivable deception by allowing for experience as a source of Christian guidance. However, the abuse does not abolish the use. Jesus knew that his teaching would spawn a myriad of cults and sects and innumerable other Jesuses and gospels and spirits, but was not deterred. Paul must have foreseen that his exposition of grace would be distorted by those who would turn it into license, but that did not deter him either. And so on. If someone wants to have ridiculous experiences and blame it on Jesus, it is not our problem or fault.
Absolutely concur, Tobie. With me, my pilgrim life was also accelerated via the indwelling, new covenant life of Christ: Jer. 31:31-34; Ezek. 36:22-28; Heb. 8.
For what it’s worth, I don’t think focusing on ourselves will ever resolve the problems of sanctification, but rather a lifting of our eyes to focus on CHRIST and his KINGDOM alone.
At the risk of repetition, my Scottish College Principal used to day, ‘A healthy person doesn’t walk around with a thermometer in his/her mouth all day long!’
(oops, ‘used to say’)
Thanks, Errol. I love that.
Thank you Tobie, Erroll & Marinus for the comments and prayers 🙂
A conqueror accepts every challenge for battle as he is very confident that he can win it!
His strength and confidence pushes him to take on the challenge and “produce” victory EVERYTIME.
That is the plight of the conqueror!
He HAS TO WIN the battle and hence HAVE TO FIGHT it out EVERYTIME!
Our blessed Lord Jesus Christ, after His victory that made him shout “IT IS FINISHED!” did not leave us with the plight of the conqueror!
( “The Battle Which Is Not Yours” by T. Austin-Sparks – https://www.austin-sparks.net/english/002099.html )
Romans 8:37 No, in all these things we are MORE THAN CONQUERORS through Him who loved us.
A “MORE THAN CONQUEROR” KNOWS THAT ALL BATTLES ARE WON AND THERE IS NO MORE TO FIGHT.
So he/she remains oblivious to the challenges to the status quo of PEACE and REST he/she enjoys! He/She is carefree!
Any anxiety ( does not matter even if it is in terms of “body or soul impulses/signals” or “true or false accusations” that may continue for days ) is dumped immediately on the one who loved him/her and gave Himself up as a Husband for him/her.
When the woman caught in adultery was accused, what was accused was true!
Romans 3:26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that HE MIGHT BE just and THE JUSTIFIER of the one who has faith in Jesus.
1 Peter 5:7 Cast ALL your ANXIETY on God because YOU ARE AN OBJECT OF ANXIETY FOR HIM ( https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_peter/5-7.htm )
This is what made Luther say.
“PRAY AND LET GOD WORRY!”
One of the most horrible lies about the Lord is spread with the words
“The Holy Spirit is a gentle man and waits till He is invited!”
Think about that! Just think about that!
Do you wait for your wife’s invitation when some one is going to rape her?
Won’t your jealousy ( even if you don’t love her ) as a husband slay the one who attempts to rape her?
How could God be less passionate than us?
OUR REST during the times our our FIERCEST AND VILEST TEMPTATIONS AND TRIALS is the JEALOUSY OF OUR HUSBAND CHRIST!
He does violently slay the rapist before the rapist can touch us!
THAT IS OUR REST!
James 4:5 Or do you think the Scripture says without reason that the SPIRIT HE CAUSED TO DWELL IN US YEARNS WITH ENVY?
One of the main reasons for my past failures was believing this lie.
“The Holy Spirit is a gentle man and waits till He is invited!”
And the deliverance came when I heeded to the voice in me that said.
Throw away that “useless Holy Spirit” and get the REAL ONE who when the earthly king ( God of this world ) defiled His vessels ( which were captured ) violently reacted with.
“MENE, MENE, TEKEL, UPHARSIN”
5 Belshazzar the king made a great feast for a thousand of his lords, and drank wine in the presence of the thousand. 2 While he tasted the wine, BELSHAZZAR GAVE THE COMMAND TO BRING THE GOLD AND SILVER VESSELS WHICH HIS FATHER NEBUCHADNEZZAR HAD TAKEN FROM THE TEMPLE WHICH HAD BEEN IN JERUSALEM, THAT THE KING AND HIS LORDS, HIS WIVES, AND HIS CONCUBINES MIGHT DRINK FROM THEM. 3 Then they brought the gold vessels that had been taken from the temple of the house of God which had been in Jerusalem; and the king and his lords, his wives, and his concubines drank from them. 4 They drank wine, and praised the gods of gold and silver, bronze and iron, wood and stone.5 IN THE SAME HOUR THE FINGERS OF A MAN’S HAND APPEARED AND WROTE OPPOSITE THE LAMPSTAND ON THE PLASTER OF THE WALL OF THE KING’S PALACE; AND THE KING SAW THE PART OF THE HAND THAT WROTE. 6 THEN THE KING’S COUNTENANCE CHANGED, AND HIS THOUGHTS TROUBLED HIM, SO THAT THE JOINTS OF HIS HIPS WERE LOOSENED AND HIS KNEES KNOCKED AGAINST EACH OTHER.
( Full Story: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Daniel+5&version=NKJV )
1 Corinthians 2:4 And my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but IN DEMONSTRATION OF THE SPIRIT AND OF POWER,
EVERY TEMPTATION IS GOD’S OPPORTUNITY TO DEMONSTRATE THE SURPASSING GREATNESS OF HIS POWER TOWARDS US WHO BELIEVE ( https://biblehub.com/ephesians/1-19.htm )
It was this understanding about the PASSIONATE HOLY SPIRIT OF CHRIST IN ME that gave me confidence to ignore arguments of the flesh and BOLDLY COMPLAIN before the throne of grace if it became too much for me at any time FIRMLY ASSURED OF HIS REACTION TO THE SITUATION!
Psalm 142:2 I pour out MY COMPLAINT before Him; I declare before Him my trouble.
1 Samuel 1:16 Do not consider your maidservant a wicked woman, for out of the ABUNDANCE OF MY COMPLAINT and grief I have spoken until now.”
Hebrews 4:16 Let us then approach the throne of grace BOLDLY ( with confidence that we will not be denied! ), so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us IN OUR TIME OF NEED.
He DOES DISPENSE the supply of the Spirit ( https://biblehub.com/philippians/1-19.htm ) so that we can partake of His Divine Nature ( https://biblehub.com/2_peter/1-4.htm ) that cannot be touched with Sin ( https://biblehub.com/1_john/5-18.htm ) which MAKES TEMPTATIONS AN OPPORTUNITY FOR GOD to display the Glory of His Grace ( Divine nature ) IN US ( https://biblehub.com/ephesians/1-6.htm ).
Romans 6:4 We were therefore buried with Him through baptism into death, IN ORDER THAT, JUST AS CHRIST WAS RAISED from the dead THROUGH THE GLORY OF THE FATHER, we too may WALK IN NEWNESS OF LIFE.
There is no other way to walk in NEWNESS OF LIFE except for the Lord to RAISE US UP AND WALK IN US HIMSELF!
And if you know that IS the OFFENSE of the Gospel to the Natural man!
Especially the Religious Natural man who wants to glory in the flesh ( glory in his self achievements )!
We all need from time to time to have a renewed understanding of our Lord’s passion for us!
WITH LUST I HAVE LUSTED TO HAVE SUPPER WITH YOU!!!! ( https://biblehub.com/interlinear/luke/22-15.htm )
That would be going beyond the INSTRUCTION OF THE MIND with doctrine to being WARMED IN OUR HEART by His passionate love that MOVES OUR WILL to RUN AFTER HIM!
Song of Solomon 1:4 TAKE ME AWAY WITH YOU—LET US HURRY! MAY THE KING BRING ME TO HIS CHAMBERS. We will rejoice and delight in you; WE WILL PRAISE YOUR LOVE MORE THAN WINE. It is only right that they adore you.
Hosea 11:4 I drew them WITH CORDS OF KINDNESS, WITH ROPES OF LOVE; I LIFTED THE YOKE FROM THEIR NECKS and BENT DOWN TO FEED THEM.
Jeremiah 31:3 The LORD appeared to us in the past, saying: “I have LOVED YOU WITH AN EVERLASTING LOVE; THEREFORE I HAVE DRAWN YOU WITH LOVING DEVOTION ( https://biblehub.com/hebrew/2617.htm ).
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, WILL DRAW ALL MEN UNTO ME.
HE WAS LIFTED UP!
HE FAITHFULL DRAWS US WITH LOVING DEVOTION ( LOVINGKINDNESS )!!!
Zechariah 1:14 Then the angel said to me, “Shout this message for all to hear: ‘This is what the LORD of Heaven’s Armies says: MY LOVE FOR JERUSALEM AND MOUNT ZION IS PASSIONATE AND STRONG.
“IS PASSIONATE AND STRONG” – That is our REST, our SECURITY!
God bless you all 🙂
Love
Love and thanks, Siju.
Dear All,
The brother & Sister from Bangladesh liked the meeting due to the “genuine discussions”. We are continuing the discussions on these topics such as desire, temptation, sin & faith is the victory.
Hope we can continue these meetings as frequently as the Lord leads us.
One of the sisters could not continue for long as it started at 9:30 PM IST.
There was a sister from the US but she could not continue due to internet connection problems 🙂
I wonder if the timing can be at 4:00 or 5:00 PM South Africa time? That would be 7:30 or 8:30 PM Indian time & 8:00 or 9:00 PM Bangladesh Time. 🙂
Love
I thank God for the very open and authentic discussion on Sunday night. I have a number of logistical suggestions, based on experience of group interaction over a decade or two. All my suggestions are meant to be constructive. Personally I would be happy with your suggested time, Siju, so as to accommodate as many as possible. Other suggestions: cut the total time to 2 hrs max – I have a pretty good concentration span, but left the conversation after 4 hrs. I have a feeling those from our group here in Port Elizabeth would concur (I will sound them out). Second, I think that each contributor, no matter how knowledgeable on the issue, should not take up too much time – if we believe in the priesthood of all believers, as I’m sure we all do, even the reserved participants should get to make a little contribution, according to the discretion of the ‘chairperson.’ Third, who will determine the subject every time? – in our house group we ask folk to raise topics from time to time, so that we scratch where it itches. By all means let’s continue with the present topic, but personally I think we should touch on other relevant topics also, e.g. how we can prevent more Ravi’s deceiving the Body (I think James 5 could be quite relevant here). I trust these critiques will be received in the spirit in which they’re given. I am all out for good listening, loving comment, humility, mutual edification and touching a lost world. Sent with love.
Thank you, Errol, Agreed. I recently attended two zoom sessions with Wayne Jacobsen and about 20 others, and was tempted to circulate/post his guidelines for zoom meetings before we had ours, but then decided against it. I thought it would be good to just let things flow for the first meeting, and I think it worked out great for Sunday’s meeting. But I said to Rev afterwards that if we want to do this again we’ll need some sort of guidelines. The first was a limit of 2 hrs, so we’re in agreement there! Here’s some of Wayne’s other guidelines:
1. If possible, use earphones or even a headset with microphone. It keeps background noise to a minimum. Also, mute yourself when not talking.
2. Make sure you’re in a quiet setting with printers, vacuum cleaners, etc. turned off. Make sure dogs and kids are cared for away from where you’re recording.
3. Share the space. Feel free to jump in and share your thought or question, but then give others a chance too. We don’t want 2 or 3 people to dominate the whole time.
4. Please don’t try to “fix” people by giving advice. Advice is best served inside a relationship and when it is solicited. It is often better to ask questions or make observations rather than to try and pass yourself off like an expert.
5. We expect this time to have some awkward moments, so don’t panic in the silences. The best questions/comments often come out of an awkward pause.
6. When you talk the first time, please tell us who you are and where you’re from, so people have context.
I’m all for 16h00 or 17h00.Let’s hear from the others which of these times will suit them best. I also like the idea of discussing a specific topic.
Thanks Tobie for your gracious response and Wayne’s guidelines. We live and learn. Thank you for your sensitive chairmanship/facilitation on Sunday night!
Yup, I am a bit hesitant to take that role of chairmanship as I never did it well, I always did well in a supporting role so to having Tobie is a blessing!
I am fine with anything! Just want to be there and fellowship! 🙂 and be helpful and learn myself.
Dear Marinus,
I used to read a good daily devotional when I was having the same struggles as you have now.
It is available at: http://web.archive.org/web/20200218144108/http://christasus.com/DailyList.asp
It helps us to understand “Christ As our Life” ( https://biblehub.com/colossians/3-4.htm ) simply stated “ChristAsUs”
Especially I wanted to send the following from it to you 🙂
====
ALL THINGS
by Steve Pettit
Ask the Crucified One who authored his death and He will reply, “My Father.” If crucified by the will of God, as horrifying as the experience was, it must end in triumph! “The fullness of joy is to behold God in every-thing!.
Seen rightly, even pain and suffering are agents of God’s steadfast love, escorting us into glory. He will expose our inadequacies, but ONLY TO reveal Himself as our adequacy. He will identify our weaknesses, SO THAT his strength might become ours BY EXPERIENCE.
When we begin to see life with GOD at the center, we have ears to hear Him say, “I dug your pits of fear, in order to intimately fill you with my perfect love. I dashed your house of dreams to personally build your house of life on UNSHAKABLE REALITY. I meant your HELLISH DESPAIR . . .it drove you into my heavenly hope. I caused you to experience that HAUNTING HOLLOWNESS OF HEART so you might be filled, INTIMATELY AND PERSONALLY filled . . . with MY LIFE.”
=====
ONE OF THE AMAZING THINGS JESUS SAID TO AN UNFORGIVEN SINNER IS A PARALYZED STATE IS:
BE OF GOOD CHEER 🙂
TAKE HEART 🙂
TAKE COURAGE 🙂
BE BOLD!
( https://biblehub.com/matthew/9-2.htm )
tharseó ( https://biblehub.com/greek/2293.htm ) meaning – properly, bolstered WITHIN which supports unflinching courage – literally, to radiate warm confidence (exude “social boldness”) – refers to God BOLSTERING THE BELIEVER, empowering them with a BOLD INNER-ATTITUDE (to be “of good courage”). For the believer, 2293 /tharséō (“showing boldness”) is the result of the LORD INFUSING HIS STRENGTH BY HIS INWORKING OF FAITH (“inbirthed persuasion,” 4102 /pístis). Showing this unflinching, bold courage means LIVING OUT THE INNER CONFIDENCE (inner bolstering) that is Spirit-produced.
Amazing that He granted forgiveness even before the man confessed his sins or said a word about his problems!
And that is what the Apostle repeats.
Romans 8:15-17 TPT ( https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%208%3A15-17&version=TPT )
5 And you did not receive the “spirit of religious duty,” LEADING YOU BACK INTO THE FEAR OF NEVER BEING GOOD ENOUGH. But you have RECEIVED THE “SPIRIT OF FULL ACCEPTANCE”,” enfolding you into the family of God. And you will NEVER FEEL ORPHANED, for AS HE RISES UP WITHIN US, OUR SPIRITS JOIN HIM IN SAYING the words of tender affection, “Beloved Father!” 16 For the HOLY SPIRIT MAKES GOD’S FATHERHOOD REAL TO US as he whispers into our innermost being, “You are God’s beloved child!”
17 And since we are his true children, we qualify to share all his treasures, for indeed, we are heirs of God himself. And SINCE WE ARE JOINED TO CHRIST, WE ALSO INHERIT ALL THAT HE IS and all that he has. We will experience being co-glorified with him provided that we accept his sufferings as our own.
OUR TEMPTATIONS ARE HIS TEMPTATIONS AS HE IS THE ONE WHO LIVES THROUGH US!
AND OUR SUFFERINGS DURING THESE TEMPTATIONS ARE ONLY A PARTAKING IN HIS SUFFERINGS!
THE BIGGEST LIE IS TO MAKE US THING THAT WE SUFFER SEPARATE FROM GOD! ( That is why we are plagued with a sense of loneliness when we are severely tempted )
ALL TEMPTATIONS ARE DESIGNED TO MAKE US BELIEVE THE LIE THAT WE ARE SEPARATED FROM GOD.
Below is something that I wrote to console myself when I went through fiery ordeals.
Hope it will comfort you also 🙂
====
The Glories of Christ and our enjoyment of Him – Our sympathetic high priest!
Hebrews 4:15 For WE DO NOT HAVE A HIGH PRIEST WHO IS UNABLE TO SYMPATHIZE WITH OUR WEAKNESSES, but ONE WHO IN EVERY RESPECT HAS BEEN TEMPTED AS WE ARE, yet without sin.
Jesus knows it, our weakness, every one of them, because HE TOO FELT IT IN HIS BODY! But even more glorious is the fact He still feels it! In His body! He is our head ( Ephesians 1:22 ) and not an insensitive paralyzed one who cannot feel the pain of His own body. We are the flesh of His flesh and the bone of His bones ( Genesis 2:23, Ephesians 5:32 ). This is a profound mystery and surely a comforting one! Hallelujah! Look at what He asked Paul 🙂
Acts 9:4 “Saul, Saul, why do you PERSECUTE ME?”
Not “why do you persecute my body?”
May God enlighten our eyes to this mystery and we will never fear when temptation comes. Because we will be sure that IT DID NOT COME TO A LONELY YOU AND ME! IT CAME TO BOTH US AND CHRIST. Then we will have the confidence to do what the next verse says 🙂
Hebrews 4:16 Let us THEN WITH CONFIDENCE DRAW NEAR TO THE THRONE OF GRACE, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.
GRACE IS HIS NATURE POURED INTO OUR SOUL THROUGH HIS SPIRIT…DIVINE RICHES…AND ETERNAL PLEASURES..
Psalm 16:11 You have made known to me the path of life; You will fill me with JOY IN YOUR PRESENCE, with ETERNAL PLEASURES at Your right hand. ( much contrasted with “passing pleasures of Sin ( https://biblehub.com/hebrews/11-25.htm )
May God who is able to stabilize you comfort and strengthen you 🙂
2 Corinthians 9:8 And God is able to make ALL grace abound to you, so that in ALL things, at ALL times, having ALL that you need, you will abound in EVERY good work.
1 Peter 5:10 And after you have suffered for a little while, the God of ALL grace, who has called you to His eternal glory in Christ, will HIMSELF RESTORE you, SECURE you, STRENGTHEN you, and ESTABLISH you.
====
Love as ever 🙂
Hi Siju
This example of Jesus telling Paul “why are you persecuting me” was a deep blessing to me. I have suspected something along these lines for a while now but I kind of abandoned this line of thinking because I could never find any scriptural backing.
I was also deeply blessed by the idea that Jesus simply responded to the man’s faith by him and his friends pursuing Jesus all the way through the roof. This was deeply inspiring to me.
I read your post to Carla during my lunch break today and it was a blessing to both of us.
I perceive that you have permitted me to keep throwing you with Bible verses that prove to be a stumbling block to me. Please do not think your efforts are not paying off. I am making progress in leaps and bounds – I am simply scooping as much water from this well as humanly possible.
In general I find the extreme hyperbolic statements of Jesus difficult to process which is ironic because I myself am a hyperbolic person 🙂
On the one side He says – “come to me all who are weary and heavy laden and I will give you rest, take my yoke up and learn from me because I am gentle and humble at heart and you will find rest for you souls. My yoke is light and my burden is easy.”.
Then in almost the same breath He says things like “Strive to enter through the narrow way – few there be that find it (my paraphrase) ” and “whoever does not pick up his cross and follow me cannot be my disciple” and “those who put their hands at the plough and keep on looking back is not worthy of the kingdom” and “if anyone comes to me and does not hate his loved ones – he is not worthy of me”.
I get that there is a mystery here and I acknowledge that I have experienced enough to make me understand that the kingdom of God is worth suffering and dying for. Also I understand Paul counts “these things”, worthless for the surpassing greatness of knowing Jesus but I fear that it feels a bit disingenuous of Jesus to make these wide open invitations of life in abundance and peace and rest and easy yokes and then follow that up by chasing everyone away with warnings and impossible standards. No surprise that Jesus says that nobody can come to him unless the Father draws him. I just wish he wouldn’t say that it was easy because dear me – it is not. It is almost impossible and it would have been were it not for God’s hand.
The other verse that I currently wrestle with is 1 John 2 15 – 17. I am making peace with the fact that “Adam cannot improve” – but then what place does these commandments carry? It seems to me like a contradiction ?! I should not love the world because if the love of the world is in me then the love of the Father is not in me? But without the love of the Father I cannot but love the world? And why tell me not to love the world if that is simply evidence that the Father’s love is not in me? Is it a warning for me to realize that if I love the world then it is evidence that I am not saved?
I will definitely look into the devotional – the concept of suffering Jesus’ suffering and Him taking my temptations are deeply inspiring. I am no fonder of suffering than the next person but I have never shunned from suffering for the right reasons. My bane is the suffering associated with accusations whether false or not. That particular test I fail just about every time. This knowledge however is very uplifting and I would love to see where it go.
Warm regards
Marinus
A wee bit of help here (if I may) re the Mt. 11 reference and the burdens mentioned there: if we read the context it refers not so much to our every day burdens as the burdens the Pharisees/clergy were laying on people. From those legalistic burdens Jesus gives glorious rest, and his yoke is light by comparison! Over to Siju…
Hi Errol
You are of course welcome to chime in as much as you want. I address Siju out of habit but I don’t assume he will be the only one reading and responding.
That said – I guess I just don’t see the context that you are referring to. Matthew 11 starts with the doubt of John the baptism and continues with the denouncement of Chorazin and Bethsaida.
There doesn’t seem to be anything here about being relieved from the heavy burdens laid on people by the pharisees. A topic that Jesus admittedly does visit.
This passage seems to me to be about “mere salvation” through and through. The ghosts of calvanism are haunting me and I can’t shake them. I can’t seem to reconcile what appears to be a bona fide offer with the notion that I just have to look back once to be disqualified from it.
I don’t believe it is a contradiction but I cannot bring myself to embrace it while I know it is so fragile that I am bound to fall short.
Regards
Marinus
Thanks for your kind response, Marinus. Personally I love using various translations and paraphrases to get to the nub of a biblical issue. E.g. regarding the Mt. bit, if we scan it in Eugene Peterson’s (brilliant OT and NT linguist, as you know) ‘The Message,’ for me anyway it comes alive and illustrates the point, I think. And then as you said, there is the wider context of Matthew, which exposes the Pharisees’ (and Calvinists,’ lol) legalism big time. Let me quote from the Message to save effort… “Abruptly Jesus broke into prayer: ‘Thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth. You’ve concealed your ways from sophisticates and know-it-alls, but spelled them out clearly to ordinary people. Yes, Father, that’s the way you like to work.’ Jesus resumed talking to the people, but now tenderly. ‘The Father has given me all these things to do and say. This is a unique Father-Son operation, coming out of Father and Son intimacies and knowledge (the Pharisees obviously knew nothing of this relationalism – Erroll). No one knows the Son the way the Father does, nor the Father the way the Son does. But I’m not keeping it to myself; I’m ready to go over it line by line with anyone willing to listen. (here comes the important bit – E) ‘Are you tired? Worn out? Burned out on religion? Come to ME. Get away with me and you’ll recover your life. I’ll show you how to take a real rest. Walk with me and work with me – watch how I do it. Learn the unforced rhythms of grace. I won’t lay ANYTHING heavy or ill-fitting on you. Keep company with me and you’ll learn to live freely and lightly.'” Ok, its a paraphrase, but it’s music to my ears as one who also struggled/continues to struggle with perfectionism etc, and yes, even Calvinism, with which I flirted during the early years of pastoring congregations, lol!
Btw, I thought your comments on Sunday night were very to the point! Love, my brother.
If I may come in here: I think the presence of all the do’s and don’ts in the New Testament may indeed seem to contradict the notion of the big DONE, and I think it is imperative that we note this and be on the lookout for it, as this is not the case.
Thanks, Marinus and Siju, for the conversation that has brought this to light.
To illustrate: I remember once mentioning on a famous “deeper Christian life” website that the real aim of Christianity is to obey the words of Christ. Boy, did I get corrected… No amount of explaining could help me to save face. I was informed that I was unacquainted with so-and-so’s (the famous blog owner’s) teachings, and encouraged to study his books (I had read almost all of them) to enhance my contributions and comments. Ironically, I was merely reiterating the words of Jesus (Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock; He who has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me, etc.), but the assumption was that I was stuck in some paradigm of legalistic obedience.
It reminded me of a meeting my brother and I once had with the rock-star leader of a well-known South African franchise of Charismatic churches, who told us “you would first have to speak our language” before he would consider partnering with our ministry’s youth teams. I guess I get it – the whole vision-alignment thing – but the notion of ecclesiastical dialects that had to be studied to enable fellowship and cooperation between believers reminded me of a certain tower and the divisions it spawned amongst its builders. And so I left that meeting feeling deflated and cynical.
The experience contributed to my departure from the Charismatic fold some years later. I was yearning for truth more transcendent, more cosmic, more inclusive than the narrow vision of the cookie-cutter campuses that were popping up all over South Africa due to the visionary brilliance of the man who had concerns about my “language”.
I soon found myself visiting a church that promised to be a safe haven against the gnostic-like tendencies of my previous allegiances, and could not stop babbling about the Lord and the Bible at the first meeting I had with the English speaking Afrikaans pastor (a recent graduate from the Master’s Seminary – one of the first in South Africa in the mid-nineties) at a braai at his house. But my words seemed to bounce back at me, and it all made sense when the young man informed me that I had now reached the place where he had been a number of years before. I had been converted and in Christendom and ministry and theology and books and everything else eons before him (not that this means anything in the bigger scheme of things), and yet all of it seemed totally and utterly worthless in that setting. I had to start all over, learn the new language, and ultimately walk the road of enlightenment this young man had been walking for a few years, to earn some semblance of legitimacy in conversations about God. It was all rather disconcerting.
A few years later I had coffee at Bloemfontein’s Waterfront (yes, we have one) with the most famous Reformed Baptist in South Africa, and spilled the beans (no pun intended). I told him everything – about my two decades (at the time) of ecclesiastical frustration and church hopping and yearning for the truth and and and. He gently listened, and then introduced me to an acrostic that would solve it all: TULIP.
Need I say more?
Which brings me back to the “Deeper Life” teacher whose devotees wanted me to understand that any talk on the importance of obedience is a dead giveaway that the talker understands absolutely nothing about the glorious finished work of Jesus Christ. (The blasphemy of wanting to do if he has done!!)
The experience was a painful reminder of every blank stare I had ever received during my denominational years whilst pouring out my heart’s spiritual passion to a new-found Christian friend. (It happened umpteen times more than the few experiences mentioned above.)
I’ve come to recognise that stare. It masks a type of mental processing that occurs when a superior understanding is confronted with babble that is judged to be ignorant and uninformed – a type of processing that is not aimed at truly listening, or understanding, or finding common ground, or, most of all, recognising and celebrating the precious subjective work of Jesus Christ through his spirit in the heart and mind of a fellow believer – but rather at educating the babbler in the particular ecclesiastical construct that distinguishes the one with the superior understanding.
To be frank: I think it is Pharisaical, cultic, sectarian, divisive and a whole lot of other nasty things that have absolutely nothing to do with the glories of knowing and walking with Jesus Christ.
And here’s the point: The beautiful and glorious truths that we explored and expounded for 4 solid hrs this past Sunday evening do NOT provide immunity to this terrible virus in the body of Christ. I won’t name names, but one can fill books with the stories of movements and individuals who at some point stumbled on the teaching we refer to as the “exchanged life”, and in the process became exclusive, elitist, more enlightened-than-thou, etc. etc.
And, as always, they do this by unfairly characterising those who deviate from the “language” and buzzwords of the insiders. (What? You do not subscribe to each of the Five Points? You are a Pelagian!)
And so, to get back to the point (I am being very longwinded here – apologies!): A particular dangerous tendency that I have seen amongst folks who read Nee and Murray and Jessie Penn Lewis and TAS and Grubb etc. etc. is to underplay obedience whilst overplaying resting in God; thus emphasising the DONE at the expense of the DO.
Some Reformed authors, most notably the legendary Jim Packer, have picked up this tendency and blasted the entire teaching as a result of the imbalance, calling it “Quietism” (in his Keep in Step with the Spirit, for those who are interested) and equating it with a dangerous type of passivity.
A few nights ago, my son and I listened to an audio book that I had read decades ago: Sit. Walk, Stand by Watchman Nee. Perhaps it is the best commentary on the relationship between the Done and the Do. It certainly makes the point that the one cannot consist without the other, and it masterfully explains the relationship between the two.
In my experience, even though the Do is the spontaneous fruit and flower of the Done (in the sense of Ephesians 4-6 flowing out of 3-1, and Romans 12-16 flowing out of 1-11, etc.), it is sometimes a thing that has to be applied in a fashion that may very well feel like a legalistic effort of one’s own flesh.
Note, as we pointed out the other night, the feeling accompanying the deed says nothing about the nature of the deed. If someone accuses me unjustly, and I feel the anger rising up, I don’t always sense the glorious bliss that comes with grasping the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross, or think about theology, or even about Jesus. In that moment the so-called outcome of 1 Cor.10:13 may very well be to clench my teeth and visualise myself skiing in the Alps and walk away and count to ten and apply something I once read about anger management and so on. This does not mean I deny my understanding of the exchanged life. Underlying it all is the conviction that I can do nothing by myself. And so, even my feeble fleshly attempts at keeping my temper at bay are undergirded with a firm foundation, namely my constant dependence on the Lord Jesus. It is the basis of my life, not a magic trick reserved for special occasions.
Also note: It is the Lord Christ who is my salvation, not my consciousness of him. This does not mean that the consciousness is not important, simply that the Lord is not bound to it. I might have been conscious of him that morning when I prayed that I would not be led into temptation but delivered from evil during the day ahead. But I may not be similarly conscious when the evil comes my way, which is fine because Christ will pay it forward.
These are just a few thoughts on the relationship between the Do and the Done. I think it also applies to the injunction not to love the world, which has been discussed above.
Perhaps we can speak some more on it this coming Sunday, if and as the Lord wills.
Didn’t read the whole thing… will do some time… 🙂
Our OBEDIENCE OF FAITH is the Holy Spirit in us daily MANIFESTING/DEMONSTRATING the FINISHED work of the Cross of Christ IN us. The finished work makes no sense without its manifestation.
Matthew 5:15 Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a basket. Instead, they set it on a stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house.
Sadly sometimes deeper folks emphasize “being” at the expense of “doing”
But a “being” with no “doing” is a “dead being” as James tells us and is no witness of the resurrection power of eternal life IN them!
There are other “emphasis errors” in deeper folks too… will write later 🙂
Response to Tobie March 25, 2021 / 10:17 am – PART -1
One of the things that make people stumble concerning the DOs and DON’Ts in the new testament are the verses:
James 1:22 BE DOERS OF THE WORD, and not hearers only. Otherwise, you are deceiving yourselves.
James 1:25 – But the one who LOOKS INTO THE PERFECT LAW, the LAW OF LIBERTY, and perseveres, being no hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, he will be blessed in his doing.
The Perfect Law here is most of the times interpreted as either the Law given of Moses or the sermon on the mount or commandments gleaned from the new testament – which all pertains to the LETTER WRITTEN OUTSIDE THE PERSON either on stone, or parchment or paper. — ALL MINISTRY OF DEATH!
The verse used to justify this is:
Psalm 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect…. ( New Testament writings was not written at that point )
But then a problem arises.
This Law given to Moses ( including 10 commandments ) is called the MINISTRY OF DEATH! So how can it be a law of liberty?
2 Corinthians 3:7 Now if the MINISTRY OF DEATH, which was engraved in letters on stone [ 10 commandments ], came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at the face of Moses because of its fleeting glory,
How can the ministry of letter which is the ministry of death be a law of liberty?
Only a LIVING LAW can be a Law of LIberty.
Because here the question is of LIFE.
A kind of Life which can FULFILL ( not just keep ) God’s standard.
People just didn’t have that kind of live whose nature aligned with the will, desire and pleasure of God! So tampering with the outward Law is of no good,
Some tampering should be done inside the person.
HENCE!
Jesus did not promise Law and Law in its fullness! ( some say Jesus replaced 10 commandments with the laws on the sermon on the mount )
Jesus promised this:
John 10:10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I have come that THEY MAY HAVE LIFE, AND HAVE IT IN ALL ITS FULLNESS.
Then the Law of Liberty James speaks is nothing about “anything, any demands, written outside a person” but he speaks about a NATURE OF ANOTHER LIFE THAT CONTROLS A PERSON which he did not have prior to his new birth.!
And we are told that this Law that James talks about is the Nature of the Holy Spirit in us which being the Light of Life causes us to walk without stumbling!
Romans 8:2 For in Christ Jesus the LAW OF THE SPIRIT OF LIFE set you free from the law of sin and death.
John 1:4 In Him was LIFE, and THAT LIFE WAS THE LIGHT OF MEN.
John 8:12 Once again, Jesus spoke to the people and said, “I am the light of the world. WHOEVER FOLLOWS ME ( walk in the Spirit ) WILL NEVER WALK IN THE DARKNESS ( live a life of sin ), BUT WILL HAVE THE LIGHT OF LIFE ( will lead a holy life ).”
James is simply asking us to TAKE A GOOD LOOK AT THE NEW SELF THAT WE ARE and put it on ( do as it guides us with its power and not our self-efforts):
Ephesians 4:24 and to PUT ON THE NEW SELF, CREATED TO BE LIKE GOD in true righteousness and holiness.
YOU WERE RECREATED AT REGENERATION TO BE LIKE GOD!!!!
That is going to scare and offend a lot of people but the scripture cannot be broken.
In other words James is asking us to TAKE A GOOD LOOK AT THE NATURE OF YOUR NEW SELF. It is righteousness and holiness granted to you without your self effort but by giving you the Holy Spirit. Don’t forget your new nature! If you forget your new nature you will drift into your old ways of thinking and walking.
Or in other words Janes is just asking us to:
Galatians 5:16 So I say, WALK BY THE SPIRIT, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.
If your eyes are open you will find that Romans is nothing but a commentary of James.
I wanted to write more… but the days are very tiring….. In my deepest darkness yesterday I wrote these:
Where is heaven and where is hell?
With one gulp I can quench this well.
Long and arid pilgrim’s trail.
In this body I travail.
Groaning to be fully clothed.
Yearning just to see him close.
Here I spent my lonely days.
In the midst of dry essays.
Not the word but power I need.
As my comfort robbed at speed.
Waiting for the heavenly vision.
In the midst of scorpions.
Through the night and through the day.
Do I feel? I cannot say!
Hidden Man who keeps me going.
In my heart, fulfill my longing.
Thanks, Siju. I have only recently done a study on the law of liberty/freedom in James. To view James as Luther did, namely as a contradiction of salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, is to misread the type of law that James has in mind. James’ “law” of liberty, or “royal law”, is the same as Jesus’ “new commandment” in John 13:34 – a new judicial system that does not abolish but fulfils the Mosaic law. The ebook that I spoke to you about, “Obedience and the Law of Christ” expounds this theme.
I would love to have that e-book Tobie 🙂
What we need to understand it that
1.. There is a “LAW WHICH IS NOT OF FAITH”
Galatians 3:12 But the LAW IS NOT OF FAITH. Rather, “The one having done these things will live by them.”
and
2.. There is a “LAW OF FAITH”
Romans 3:27 By what law? Of works? No, but by the LAW OF FAITH.
The perfect LAW OF LIBERTY mentioned by James ( https://biblehub.com/james/1-25.htm )
is mentioned in different ways in the scripture.
LAW OF THE SPIRIT ( https://biblehub.com/romans/8-2.htm )
LAW OF CHRIST ( https://biblehub.com/galatians/6-2.htm )
POWER OF AN INDESTRUCTIBLE LIFE ( https://biblehub.com/interlinear/hebrews/7-16.htm )
ROYAL LAW OF LOVE ( https://biblehub.com/james/2-8.htm )
MY LAWS ( https://biblehub.com/hebrews/8-10.htm, https://biblehub.com/hebrews/10-16.htm )
James is definitely not talking of the Law given to Moses ( oldness of the letter https://biblehub.com/romans/7-6.htm )
Because James gives two examples.
Abraham going to kill His son
Rahab A Harlot bearing false witness.
Now the Law given to Moses forbids human sacrifice and harlotry and bearing a false witness. According to the Law of Moses these two persons should be put to death!
So what Law did they obey? Of works?
NO!
but by the LAW OF FAITH. ( Romans 3:27 )
Abraham believed that God will keep His promise and that Isaac would be RESURRECTED from the dead even if Abraham killed Issac ( https://biblehub.com/hebrews/11-19.htm )
Rahab believed that the God of the Hebrews would give the Hebrews REST in her land which they will possess. ( https://www.bible.com/bible/296/JOS.2.8-9.GNB )
AND WE KNOW THAT RESURRECTION LIFE IS THE BASIS OF THE REST THAT WE HAVE IN CHRIST!
————-
Now there is a group of people saying that we need to obey the commandments because Jesus said:
John 14:15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments.
And they say that the commandments there are plural so it is not just the one royal commandment to love and they say it includes all commandments Jesus kept including observing Saturday as Sabbath etc.
But if you closely read the passages surrounding it you will see three commandments clearly.
1. Believe ( 86 times in the Gospel according to John https://bit.ly/3wa9yMz )
2. Abide/Remain ( https://bit.ly/3o6rCUN )
3. Love ( Agape ) ( https://bit.ly/3bhPHD7 , https://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/14-15.htm , https://biblehub.com/greek/25.htm )
THE SUM TOTAL OF SOUND DOCTRINE IS “BELIEVE AND ABIDE!”.
1. Believe in Christ.
2. Abide/Remain in Christ – Don’t subject yourself to regulations ( https://biblehub.com/colossians/2-20.htm )
To keep this SOUND DOCTRINE to BELIEVE AND ABIDE you need the HELP OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.
2 Timothy 1:14 Guard THE TREASURE entrusted to you, WITH THE HELP OF THE HOLY SPIRIT who dwells in us.
Because every day morning the flesh does make us drift little by little from it hence the warning.
Hebrews 2:1 We MUST PAY CLOSER ATTENTION, therefore, to what we have heard, SO THAT WE DO NOT DRIFT AWAY.
Because these two things BELIEVING AND ABIDING causes the Life of Christ to flow in and through us.
It creates that GODLY LOVE which is a product of 3 components.
1 Timothy 1:5 The goal of our instruction is the LOVE that comes from a
1) PURE HEART, a
2) CLEAR CONSCIENCE, and a
3) SINCERE FAITH.
THIS LOVE/AGAPE HELPS US TO FULFIL THE ROYAL LAW TOLD TO US BY JAMES.
James 2:8 If you really fulfill the royal law stated in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well.
Now in Part 3 I will say how the Law Given to Moses becomes the Law of Liberty to those who have their veils removed to see Christ.
LOVE
Thank you, Siju. I love this.
Part-3 of Response to Tobie March 25, 2021 / 10:17 am
I will say how the Law Given to Moses becomes the Law of Liberty to those who have their veils removed to see Christ.
1 Peter 2:4-9 ESV ( https://www.bible.com/bible/59/1PE.2.4-9.ESV )
As you come to him, a living stone rejected by men but in the sight of God chosen and precious, you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. For it stands in Scripture: “Behold, I AM LAYING IN ZION A STONE, a cornerstone chosen and precious, and WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM will not be put to shame.” So the honor is for you who believe, but FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, “The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,” and “A STONE OF STUMBLING, AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE.” They STUMBLE BECAUSE THEY DISOBEY THE WORD,
This passage is talking about the LIVING WORD – JESUS.
The same LIVING WORD functions in two different ways to two different categories of people.
To those who OBEY THE WORD TO “BELIEVE” – “A CORNERSTONE chosen and precious”
To those who DISOBEY THE WORD TO “BELIEVE” and do not believe – “A STONE OF STUMBLING and a rock of offence.
Similarly the WRITTEN WORD functions in two different ways to the same two categories of people.
To those who turn to the Holy Spirit for sight and Revelation – It displays like a mirror the divine nature in us through indwelling Christ, it preaches Christ who is our Good News or Gospel, and the LAW AND THE PROPHETS WITNESS TO A RIGHTEOUSNESS APART FROM THE LAW!
Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, ( https://biblehub.com/romans/3-21.htm )
2 Corinthians 3:14-18 ESV ( https://www.bible.com/bible/59/2CO.3.14-18.ESV )
But their minds were hardened. For to this day, WHEN THEY READ THE OLD COVENANT, THAT SAME VEIL REMAINS UNLIFTED, BECAUSE ONLY THROUGH CHRIST IS IT TAKEN AWAY. Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their hearts. BUT WHEN ONE TURNS TO THE LORD, THE VEIL IS REMOVED. NOW THE LORD IS THE SPIRIT, AND WHERE THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS, THERE IS FREEDOM.
The unbeliever while reading the scripture with his clever natural mind ( which is darkness and death ) can only see the demands/toke of the Law ( https://biblehub.com/acts/15-10.htm ) and the accompanying curse ( https://biblehub.com/galatians/3-10.htm )! And history and stories that inspire etc.
But when the believer approaches the Holy Spirit the Holy Spirit removes the veil!
( John 9:39 Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, that those who do not see may see, and those who see may become blind.” )
And we find that the Story of Isaac and Ishmael was really about two covenants. ( Galatians 4 ) and how the first covenant will be set aside to bring in a better covenant ( https://biblehub.com/hebrews/7-18.htm, , https://biblehub.com/hebrews/7-19.htm )
We find that the story in which Jacob supplants the first born is really giving us the assurance that the second nature ( Christ’s ) that we receive will supplant our first nature ( Sin, of Satan ) through the Father’s blessing as He begets us no matter what our infirmities and feebleness are ( Luke 12:32 “Fear not, little flock, for it is your Father’s good pleasure to give you the kingdom. )
We find from the Story of Laban How Sin showing us the DESIRABLE LAW deceived us ( https://biblehub.com/romans/7-11.htm ) to kill us and live ( https://biblehub.com/romans/7-9.htm ) through us producing its fruit of darkness ( https://biblehub.com/romans/6-21.htm ). And we did not know it like Jacob until the light hit his eyes in the morning to make him sober. ( https://biblehub.com/john/8-12.htm )
When we read “Thou shall not commit adultery” we are not thinking about the neighbour’s wife but about the divine nature in us that cannot have friendship with the world. ( https://biblehub.com/james/4-4.htm ) The Living Christ in us who rejected Satan’s offer in Mathew 4 and told us to be of Good cheer because He has overcome the world in John 14.
When we read “Thou shall not murder” we are not thinking of stabing a person but about unlawful taking away of life and we realize how submissive the Christ in us was to the Father so as to abide in Him always to have His Life manifested through Him and How Christ will enable us to live the same way with unbroken fellowship, communion of Life
So when the believer unveiled by the Holy Spirit reads the Law & the Prophets he DOES NOT SEE A BINDING LAW BUT A LIBERATING CHRIST IN HIM.
And this is what Jesus taught the disciples unlike the pharisees.
Luke 24:27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, HE INTERPRETED TO THEM IN ALL THE SCRIPTURES THE THINGS CONCERNING HIMSELF.
Now the Lord ( Jesus ) is the Spirit; and WHERE THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS, THERE IS LIBERTY. ( https://biblehub.com/2_corinthians/3-17.htm
LOVE
Thanks so much for sharing this, Tobie, so helpful to me/us, and borne out by careful thought and personal experience.
About time you came to visit a real waterfront, in Q’berha nogal. Love to you and all the saints.
Haha. And how I miss a Waterfront that comes with the smell of the ocean!
Dear Tobie,
I am very much concerned since I have not heard from you for a while. I had requested ERROLL to contact you by phone but he also did not get any response from you. I hope you have not got COVID and perhaps you are on a Sabbatical.
I just felt inspired to write to you on what the Lord has taught me during the last trial.
THAT GHOST IS JESUS!
Mathew 14: 26 And when the disciples saw Him walking on the sea, they were troubled, saying, “It is a ghost!” And they cried out for fear. 27 But immediately Jesus spoke to them, saying, “BE OF GOOD CHEER! IT IS I; DO NOT BE AFRAID.”
Be of Good Cheer = BE EMBOLDENED FROM WITHIN TO RADIATE WARM CONFIDENCE ( https://biblehub.com/greek/2293.htm ) REFERS TO GOD BOLSTERING THE BELIEVER, EMPOWERING THEM WITH A BOLD INNER-ATTITUDE
28 And Peter answered Him and said, “Lord, if it is You, command me to come to You on the water.”
29 SO HE SAID, “COME.” And when Peter had come down out of the boat, HE WALKED ON THE WATER TO GO TO JESUS. 30 But when he saw [e]that the wind was boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink he cried out, saying, “Lord, save me!”
31 And IMMEDIATELY JESUS STRETCHED OUT HIS HAND AND CAUGHT HIM, and said to him, “O you of little faith, why did you doubt?”
32 And WHEN THEY GOT INTO THE BOAT, THE WIND CEASED.
——
John 6:16 And it was already dark, and JESUS HAD NOT COME TO THEM. 18 Then the SEA AROSE because a great wind was blowing. 19 So when they had rowed about [c]three or four miles, they saw Jesus walking on the sea and drawing near the boat; and they were afraid.
20 BUT HE SAID TO THEM, “IT IS I; DO NOT BE AFRAID.”
21 Then THEY WILLINGLY RECEIVED HIM INTO THE BOAT, and IMMEDIATELY THE BOAT WAS AT THE LAND WHERE THEY WERE GOING.
—–
In this pilgrimage there are times when we lose the sense of the Lord’s presence.
Those are the times when we need to hang on to the word that gives light in the darkness ( https://biblehub.com/2_peter/1-19.htm )
And the precise scripture for such times is:
Hebrews 13:5 Let your manner of life be without covetousness, BEING SATISFIED WITH THE PRESENT; for He Himself has said: “NEVER WILL I LEAVE YOU, NEVER WILL I FORSAKE YOU.”
In the literal translation it is:
NEVER NOT YOU WILL I LEAVE, NEVER NOT YOU WILL I FORSAKE! — Double negative to give us FULL ASSURANCE
We know that the Lord will not forsake us. But the question whether he has left us for a time rings in our head from time to time especially when He is weaning us from our senses.
But the sense of the Lord having left us does bring in a test.
When we find that there is no answer to our questions for a long time this “fear that the Lord has left us” combined with a “sense of sinfulness,” of “having failed the Lord” can bring us into fear. And when we are filled with fear we lose sound judgement and sober spirit which are necessary for prayer. ( https://biblehub.com/1_peter/4-7.htm ).
In such a mental state even the presence of the Lord will look as the presence of a Ghost. Instead of seeing the Lord in our trials we see entities that either come to kill us or take us captive. And instead of prayer what comes from a fear filled mind is screams.
But none of our trials last for long. We find in the Gospels several situations where the apostles were fearful. But none of the situations lasted for long. They were all meant to perfect their faith!
ONCE THE LORD HAS ACCOMPLISHED WHAT HE DESIRED IMMEDIATELY THE SENSE OF OUR UNION WITH HIM IS RESTORED.
Mathew 14:32 And WHEN THEY ( Jesus and Peter ) GOT INTO THE BOAT, THE WIND CEASED.
John 6:21 Then THEY WILLINGLY RECEIVED HIM INTO THE BOAT, and IMMEDIATELY THE BOAT WAS AT THE LAND WHERE THEY WERE GOING.
Two miracles here without the Lord speaking anything! When Jesus got into the boat
1.. The wind ceased
2.. The boat was at the land where they were going ( from the middle of the sea )
Every test ( trial/temptation ) comes to question our union with Christ.
None of it comes without the supervision of our Father ( https://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/10-13.htm )
Those temptations & trials either expose a weak spot in us or give us a sense of the struggles that our brothers and sisters go through so we can be merciful and faithful to uphold them just as our High Priest is ( https://biblehub.com/hebrews/2-17.htm )
It may be that we started on a venture as we heard Jesus say COME, and we expected the Lord to make our journey calm but contrary to our expectations the wind is boisterous making us fearful of sinking. But we find that the Lord is quick to uphold such a person who ventures out of the comfort zone hearing His voice. And the question was not whether it was the Lord’s voice that we heard say “COME” but our little faith which had to be perfected to be bold BE BOLD FROM WITHIN TO RADIATE WARM CONFIDENCE to the ones around us.
My medications make me feel that I have many sand bags tied all over my body. Moving any limb is a strain. And I feel only Sin and not the Lord most of the time. And I need to take actively by faith the Life of Christ made available to me by the indwelling Spirit to do anything. I was fearful at the beginning but as soon as my faith was perfected I was able to see that the Ghost was indeed Jesus and not Satan! But the Daily walk when I feel juiced out and breathless has to be walked keeping my eyes on Jesus having no confidence in myself but in God who raised the dead!
Love
Hi Siju, so nice to hear from you! Thank you for the concern and checking up on me. I have been incredibly busy with a number of things, which is why I have been quiet. Our school is in an expansion phase and it is keeping us insanely busy. Hopefully we will reach the still waters and green pastures of rest before too long 🙂 Thank you for the above. It ministered to me.
On Rest in Mathew 11:28-29
Dear Erroll,
Here is my response to your question on March 25, 2021 / 11:19 am
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A wee bit of help here (if I may) re the Mt. 11 reference and the burdens mentioned there: if we read the context it refers not so much to our every day burdens as the burdens the Pharisees/clergy were laying on people. From those legalistic burdens Jesus gives glorious rest, and his yoke is light by comparison! Over to Siju…
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Let us go to the text itself 🙂
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Matthew 11:28-29 ESV ( https://my.bible.com/bible/59/MAT.11.28-29.ESV )
28Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you REST.
29Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find REST for your souls.
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We find two RESTs in these couple of verses.
The REST in verse 28 is a REST FROM a particular burden they are always carrying.
The REST in verse 29 is the REST DURING/WHILE carrying a particular burden they are invited to carry.
Let us first talk about the REST in verse 28. In verse 28 there was a labor that the people were already doing. And as a matter of fact they were heavy laden. Let us look at those labors and burdens in verse 28 that Jesus talks about.
John 6:27 ( https://biblehub.com/john/6-27.htm )
1. DO NOT LABOR FOR THE FOOD WHICH PERISHES, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.”
The Natural man is bent on self preservation. He is ever worried about the “supposed shortage” of food or other amenities he fears will happen to him and his near and dear ones. And both politicians and religious leaders take advantage of it! The story of God having fed Israel in the wilderness for 40 years does not make much of a bearing on the Natural man just as the miracle of multiplying food before the disciples did not impact them ( https://biblia.com/bible/esv/matthew/16/6-9 )
This is not the problem of the poor alone but the rich is also into this madness. ( https://biblia.com/bible/niv/luke/12/16-21 )
SELF PRESERVATION is NOT the only cause of this LABOR but a future hope of EASE IN LIFE also contributes to this. ( David not going to war in season and being at ease caused a great fall that changed the history of not only a family but a nation. Ease is Satanic – 2 Samuel 11 – More on this Later )
Now Jesus tells us that this labor is unnecessary because we have a Father in heaven.
Matthew 6:32–33 ( https://biblia.com/bible/esv/matthew/6/32-33 )
32 For the Gentiles seek after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them all. 33 But SEEK FIRST THE KINGDOM OF GOD AND HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS, and all these things will be added to you.
So from these verses the Labor by which they were heavy laden in Mathew 11:28 consists of “and the cares of this world, the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things entering in choke the word, ( https://biblehub.com/mark/4-19.htm )
Jesus proposes another labor/yoke/burden in Matthew 11:29 and it consists of
1. Labor for the food which endures to everlasting life, ( https://biblehub.com/john/6-27.htm )
2. Seek FIRST the kingdom of God and His Righteousness
Now what is the Kingdom of God?
Rightly Translated it is the SOVEREIGN RULE OF GOD IN OUR HEARTS ( https://biblehub.com/greek/932.htm )
This experience is also called reign in our personal life through the one man, Jesus Christ! ( https://biblehub.com/romans/5-17.htm )
How can this happen?
By feeding on the food that endures to everlasting life. ( https://biblehub.com/john/6-51.htm )
Or by drinking the Spirit of Christ ( John 4, https://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/12-13.htm )
Now this life is full of activity ( https://biblehub.com/john/5-17.htm ) but since the activity is done by the Spirit of Christ in us using the unlimited resources of God we are at REST!
This REST DURING WORK is the REST mentioned Mathew 11:29.
But there is a more complicated problem. Life’s problems are always complicated by religion.
There are Two ways to LABOR FOR FOOD THAT DOES NOT PERISH AND SEEK THE KINGDOM OF GOD AND HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS.
The Pharisees proposed the way of works or the way of self-effort! Loving God’s Law and Trying hard to keep it. The Pharisees even said even earthly blessings from God belongs to such hard working law keeping attempters.
SO IN ADDITION TO THE DAILY STRUGGLES THE RULES OF THE RELIGIOUS LEADERS OF THE TIME THAT SNATCHED EVEN THE WIDOW”S MITE ( https://biblehub.com/luke/21-3.htm ) RUTHLESSLY IN THE NAME OF GOD ADDED TO THE BURDEN.
Not to mention the snake the guilt, hopelessness etc that were part of the Self-effort scheme all added to the burden.
Jesus was asking them to dump ALL their cares ( hence stop the labour ) on God in Matthew 11:28 and Enter God’s Rest in Hebrews 4:10. ( https://biblehub.com/hebrews/4-10.htm )
For whoever enters God’s rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from His. ( BSB )
On that day God’s people will rest from their work, just as God rested from his work. ( CEV )
Now what happens after Hebrews 4:10? After they have Rested from their self effort?
The Holy Spirit or the Living Word will guide them by discerning for them what is their work ( self-effort, of the soul ) and what is God’s work ( Grace, of the Spirit ) so they can have the ALL Sufficiency of God in their daily life and work and be at Rest.
Hebrews 4:12 https://biblehub.com/hebrews/4-12.htm
God’s word is alive and powerful! It is sharper than any double-edged sword. His word can cut through our spirits and souls and through our joints and marrow, until it discovers the desires and thoughts of our hearts. ( CEV )
For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it pierces even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow. It judges/discerns the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
2 Corinthians 9:8 https://biblehub.com/2_corinthians/9-8.htm
And God is able to make ALL grace abound toward you, that you, always having ALL sufficiency in ALL things, may have an abundance for every good work.
This guidance from the Living Word of the Holy Spirit is called the Government/KingDom of God.
This is what a yoke does:
1. It lays a burden
2. It controls the beast
The burden from the Lord’s yoke is light because we are guided and energized by the Holy Spirit ( Romans 8:11, Colossians 1:11, 1 Cor 1:30, Ephesians 2 )
Human beings are beasts of burden. There is no escape. And their burdens control them. They are bound to their burdens. There are two burdens we can carry.
The Heavy Burden of Sin through the Law ( Romans 7 )
The light yoke of Christ through Grace ( Romans 8, Galatians 2:20 )
REST is Work from the Sufficiency ( energy, joy, wisdom, peace, love, how, patience etc ) provided by God
Ease – is another word for laziness. God has some terrible warnings for them.
Jeremiah 48:11-12 Moab has been at EASE from youth, settled like wine on its dregs; he has not been poured from vessel to vessel or gone into exile. So his flavor has remained the same, and his aroma is unchanged. Therefore behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will send to him wanderers, who will pour him out. They will empty his vessels and shatter his jars.
Amos 6:1 “Woe to those who are at ease in Zion, and to those who feel secure on the mountain of Samaria, the notable men of the first of the nations, to whom the house of Israel comes! —- Read the full chapter to see what happens to the proponents of the Prosperity Gospel that promises SATANIC EASE instead of GOD’s REST
I don’t know If I made it clear.
Erroll please let me know 🙂
This is a huge topic… It also relates to the priesthood according to Melchizedek and that is where Hebrews 4 is traveling to…..
LOVE
Thanks for your expanded and detailed response, Siju. Much appreciated, especially under your difficult personal health circumstances.
If you look at Mathew 11:28-29 we can see it is an invitation from the Lord of Glory Himself from the kingdom of Darkness/Death to His Kingdom of Light/Life/Power ( https://biblehub.com/colossians/1-13.htm )
His invitation is to come out of a state called “IN THE FLESH” which we were in before our new birth to another state called “IN THE SPIRIT” which the new birth brings to us by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in us.
BEFORE NEW BIRTH – BEFORE RECEIVING THE HOLY SPIRIT:
Romans 7:5 For when we WERE IN THE FLESH, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. ( OLD STATE, OLD MAN )
AFTER NEW BIRTH – AFTER RECEIVING THE HOLY SPIRIT:
Romans 8:9 But you are NOT in the flesh BUT IN THE SPIRIT, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you ( NEW STATE, NEW MAN ). Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
IN THE FLESH = Natural/Carnal mind which is DEATH ( https://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/2-14.htm , https://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/3-3.htm, https://biblehub.com/romans/8-6.htm
IN THE SPIRIT = Experiencing the Depths of God, LIFE AND PEACE ( https://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/2-10.htm , https://biblehub.com/romans/8-6.htm
Now this is very important because the Lord’s prayer is all about this one.
I will just take the first verse.
Matthew 6:9 : “‘Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
OR
May your holy name be honored;
OR
let your name be kept holy.
This shows to us the reverential fear of God.
A Holy Fear! Or “Piety” as opposed to “profane”
Now let us go to Hebrews:
Hebrews 5:7 who ( Jesus ), in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears TO HIM WHO WAS ABLE TO SAVE HIM FROM DEATH, and was heard because of His godly fear ( REVERENCE PIETY ).[ The opposite of Piety can be Profanity we will come to that at the end ]
Now from what death was Jesus Saved from?
He was not saved from a Physical Death!
Well He did not remain in death because the Father sent His Glory/Spirit and raised Him ( https://biblehub.com/romans/6-4.htm )
But “when do” and “what for” do we see the Lord praying with vehement cries and tears?
Luke 22:41- 44 He withdrew about a stone’s throw beyond them, knelt down and prayed, “FATHER, IF YOU ARE WILLING, TAKE THIS CUP FROM ME. Yet not My will, but Yours be done.”Now an angel appeared to Him from heaven, strengthening Him. And being in agony [deeply distressed and anguished; almost to the point of death], He prayed more intently; and His sweat became like drops of blood, falling down on the ground.
Take this cup from me —- This is the very carnal mind that the Lord called Satan’s mind when He rebuked Peter before.
Matthew 16:21- 23 21From that time on Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests, and scribes, and that He must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.
22Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him. “Far be it from You, Lord!” he said. “This shall never happen to You!”
23But Jesus turned and said to Peter, “GET BEHIND ME, SATAN! YOU ARE A STUMBLING BLOCK TO ME. FOR YOU DO NOT HAVE IN MIND THE THINGS OF GOD, BUT THE THINGS OF MEN.”
SO REAL SATANISM IS TO BE MINDFUL OF THE THINGS OF MEN AND NOT GOD!!!
This carnal mind affected Peter. The Lord rebuked him sharply calling him Satan!
The same mind is now affecting the Son of Man! The very Christ Himself!
He confessed His carnal mind But also confesses His desire to Do the will of the Father! And an angel strengthened him to pray and not give in to the temptations of the carnal mind which we are later told is DEATH
Romans 8:6 For TO BE CARNALLY MINDED IS DEATH, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
So it was from this Death that Christ was delivered in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears ( in Gethsemane ) TO HIM WHO WAS ABLE TO SAVE HIM FROM DEATH, and was heard because of His godly fear ( REVERENCE PIETY ).
Why was he saved?
Because of His Piety!
What is piety?
It is the opposite of profane/profane and from Hebrews itself we find that…
Hebrews 12:16 lest there be any FORNICATOR or PROFANE person like Esau, who for one morsel of food sold his birthright.
FORNICATOR (spiritually) – a person who sells themselves ( gives in ) to the desire for PLEASURE/EASE/COMFORT like:
Adam & Eve
Genesis 3:6 When the woman SAW that the tree was GOOD FOR FOOD and PLEASING TO THE EYES, and that IT WAS DESIRABLE FOR OBTAINING WISDOM, she took the fruit and ate it. She also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate it.
Esau – https://biblia.com/bible/message/genesis/25/29-34
PROFANE (spiritually) – a person who has no reverence ( fear of God )
So Adam, Eve, Esau, Peter & Christ all had the carnal/profane thoughts. Christ even confessed it. But what was the difference? After confessing it He not being weakened in faith ( https://biblehub.com/romans/4-19.htm ) expressed His desire to do the will of the father! And the father gave Him strength to pray while being in more agony and the Father helped him to say a FINAL NO to the carnal mind.
Jesus was saved due to his piety!
He had reverence for the Father’s will even when He was not willing to do it gladly.
He relied on the Father for Power to do God’s will.
He did not given in like Adam, Eve & Esau.
Adam & Eve did not reverence the light/revelation from God about partaking from the tree of Knowledge and relied on their sense knowledge ( Carnal mind ) and became fornicators and profane persons.
Cain did not reverence the birthright God gave him and gave into his fleshy appetite and became a fornicator and profane person.
So when we pray “Hallowed be thy Name” and the other verses below we are actually praying for deliverance from the carnal mind.
Carnal mind is when a person who has the Holy Spirit thinks like the Natural Man who has no Spirit!!!
So we have encouragement in Hebrews.
Hebrews 12:4 In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.
SATAN DOES NOT WANT US TO COMMIT BIG SINS LIKE MURDER OR ADULTERY.
HE JUST WANTS US TO WALK BY SIGHT AND NOT BY FAITH.
FOR THAT WOULD BE PROFANING THE HOLY GOD WHO HAS MADE GREAT AND PRECIOUS PROMISES AND THUS BY IGNORING WHAT HAS TO BE BELIEVED BY FAITH WE WOULD BE TESTIFYING BY OUR LIVES THAT GOD IS A LIAR!!!!
I am writing this actually for myself because sometimes I just want to give in to the carnal mind. And these days the whispers “give up”, “give up” are sweeter than before.
Some time back I had written this.
Sultry Suicide
This time she is gentle
She knows I am weak
Emotionally and mentally
Too many doctors I ‘ve seen
Conflicting ideas,
different schools of thought
Varying experiences,
different diagnosis,
contradicting counsels.
I feel the life inside me,
is hanging by a thread,
of God’s mercy that never ends
I don’t want to go to heaven,
I don’t want to see hell
Sleeping in a nice pasture,
till everything is well.
I am so calm today,
oozing fury clamped
And she is so gentle today
leading me to the deathbed
I have no tears, I can’t cry
I have no complaints
I don’t blame anyone
Even me for this state
Now please don’t panic. I am over that situation now by God’s grace 🙂
But just putting it here like the psalmist openly writes his woes.
I also heard https://www.austin-sparks.net/english/books/battle_for_the_throne_the.html a little which also talks about the carnal mind.
God bless you all. The ortho send me to the psychiatrist also in addition to Neuro so that I can be drugged to sleep.
The Psychiatrist alone gave me 4 other drugs to put me to sleep. Initially.
Duloxetine 20 1-0-1
Placida – Flupenthixol (0.5mg) + Melitracen (10mg) 1-0-0
Quitpin 50 0-0-1
Zolcam 10 – Melatonin (3 mg) + Zolpidem (10 mg) 0-0-1
But Zoalcam had Melatonine in it.
Melatonin gives me very very weird lucid sexual dreams and is very distressing ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucid_dream )
So the psychiatrist changed Zolcam and gave me Lorazepam. Also increased Qutipin from 50 to 100 and asked me to take Placida in the afternoon also.
So basically I am walking and sleeping like a zombie most of the time while always assaulted by the carnal mind!!!!!
In revelation Sorcery means having an altered state of mind using drugs.
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/21-8.htm
5333. Pharmakos ( https://biblehub.com/greek/5333.htm ) – a poisoner, sorcerer, magician – properly, a sorcerer; used of people using drugs and “religious incantations” to drug people into living by their illusions ( carnal mind )
So please pray for me that I may be kept from doing anything profane and that the name of the Father be always Hallowed in my being 🙂
LOVE YOU ALL!!!!!
Dear ERROLL,
I was hearing Ascent of Mount Carmel by St. John of the Cross ( https://www.ccel.org/ccel/john_cross/ascent.html ) and in it he describes the weariness caused due to desire. I thought you would find it interesting! 🙂
How desires wearies and fatigues the soul.
And our Lord’s invitation to REST also included true satisfaction received from God alone which can quench all hunger and thirst……
………………………In order that what we have said may be the more clearly and fully understood, it will be well to set down here and state how these desires are the cause of two serious evils in the soul: the one is that they deprive it of the Spirit of God, and the other is that the soul wherein they dwell is WEARIED, TORMENTED, DARKENED, DEFILED AND WEAKENED, according to that which is said in Jeremias, Chapter II: Duo mala fecit Populus meus: dereliquerunt fontem aquae vivae, ut foderunt sibi cisternas, dissipatas, quae continere non valent aquas. Which signifies: They have forsaken Me, Who am the fountain of living water, and they have hewed them out broken cisterns, that can hold no water.117 Those two evils — namely, the privative and the positive — may be caused by any disordered act of the desire. And, speaking first of all, of the privative, it is clear from the very fact that the soul becomes affectioned to a thing which comes under the head of creature, that the more the desire for that thing fills the soul,118 the less capacity has the soul for God;………………………………
……And in this regard it is still worse with desire; for the fire goes down when the wood is consumed, BUT DESIRE, THOUGH IT INCREASES WHEN FUEL IS ADDED TO IT, DECREASES NOT CORRESPONDINGLY WHEN THE FUEL IS CONSUMED; ON THE CONTRARY, INSTEAD OF GOING DOWN, AS DOES THE FIRE WHEN ITS FUEL IS CONSUMED, IT GROWS WEAK THROUGH WEARINESS, FOR ITS HUNGER IS INCREASED AND ITS FOOD DIMINISHED. And of this Isaias speaks, saying: Declinabit ad dexteram, et esuriet: et comedet ad sinistram, et non saturabitur.129 This signifies: He shall turn to the right hand, and shall be hungry; and he shall eat on the left hand, and shall not be filled. For they that mortify not their desires, when they ‘turn,’ justly see the fullness of the sweetness of spirit of those who are at the right hand of God, which fullness is not granted to themselves; and justly, too, when they eat on the left hand,130 by which is meant the satisfaction of their desire with some creature comfort, they are not filled, for, leaving aside that which alone can satisfy, they feed on that which causes them greater hunger. It is clear, then, that THE DESIRES WEARY AND FATIGUE THE SOUL.
Excerpts from: https://ccel.org/ccel/john_cross/ascent/ascent.iv.vii.html
Hi Tobie, have we settled on a time for Sunday’s zoom? I just need to inform some of our folk on Sunday morning. Thanks.
Hi Errol, Siju included the invite link at the bottom of his mail to us, for 16h00. Although I see the date is for 4 April. But I think that ‘s an error. I’ll see if I can confirm with him. We are preparing for 16h00 tomorrow.
Excellent. We will miss him.
Dear all,
Thank you for your prayers.. 🙂 It helps a LOT!!!
Back after physiotherapy from cousin’s house and I have partial relief from pain due to inflammation… Pain due to nerve compression still there.. managing with painkillers like Tramadol, Acetaminophen, Etodolac, Deflazacort, Pregabalin, Nortriptyline/Duloxetine etc.. typing is vexingly painful… Problem with my back also.. so pain spreads to legs also now… Was at bed rest without the internet or even being able to read the bible properly at my cousin’s house.. so got a lot of time to pray.. 🙂 LOL!
Typing is very painful so planning to put a voice recording responding to the comments above as the Lord allows 🙂
Special love to Marinus. Marinus, You are specially in my prayers and I think you will like –> https://thesingleeye.wordpress.com/2021/04/05/dont-give-up-the-fight-of-faith/
Erroll you are in my thoughts and I will answer your questions in the voice recording…
The drug addicts that Quentine and others minister to are in my prayers…
Tobie, hope to have the zoom meetings at the Lord’s time.
And Reveine, By God’s grace I will spring back with a testimony that will make you laugh even more… LOL 🙂
Orthopedic insists on me taking an antidepressant since severe body pain does affect mentally… I think it is true because it seems like the nerves on the face does shrink as one would have when experiencing great emotional pain and the feeling of wanting to burst into tears linger… though there is immeasurable joy inside…
The spirit willing but the flesh weak!
But Nortryptline which was prescribed for emotional support as well as sleep kicked me into a hypomanic mood due to bipolar disorder issues so he has changed it to Duloxetine but I am quit that too if it does not work out…
Not consulting the Neurosurgeon now but going to try some natural remedies with faith..
The greatest challenge was to believe that the Christ who upholds all things ( https://biblehub.com/hebrews/1-3.htm ) by His power can uphold my head too intact on a defective neck… But I do believe He is the lifter of my head ( https://biblehub.com/psalms/3-3.htm ) and that the iron does defy gravity and float ( https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Kings+6%3A4-6&version=GW )
One of the things that the Lord keeps doing is to bring us to the end of our natural resources ( strength, health, finance, sanity, wits/wisdom ) so that His Gospel is not just “word” but “POWER” for daily living in ALL circumstances…
2 Corinthians 1:8,9 We do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about the troubles we experienced in the province of Asia. We were under great pressure, FAR BEYOND our ability to endure, so that we despaired of life itself. Indeed, we felt we had received the sentence of death. But this happened that we might not rely on ourselves BUT ON GOD, WHO RAISES THE DEAD.
1 Corinthians 4:20 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of talk but OF POWER
Thank you all a million for helping me with your prayers to experience that power ( https://biblehub.com/philippians/1-19.htm )
LOVE
Thanks for the update, Siju, and the encouraging words from 2 Cor 1:8-9. They have carried me through some of the most difficult times of my life and are always profound.
Tobie and Siju, those words from 2 Cor. 1:3-11 I was able to preach on after recovering from a 6 months clinical depression/burnout at the close of 1992. My hands were shaking so much that morning that I had to hold the glass of water in the pulpit with both hands so that I didn’t spill the whole lot, lol! 28 yrs later. still sustained by the power of God ‘who raises the dead.’ Ps. 73:1, ‘God is always GOOD to his people…’
In our love and prayers, Siju.
Was looking back over the year and remembered the short time that I was blessed to have met and interacted with Siju. I have nothing to say just felt like coming here and say a few meaningless words in his honor and for the glory of God. Regards.